Loren Smith

The 5-point Simpson race harnesses would be even safer!

JoeCool66

Mechanical question: If I was to weld a bracket to the frame, what size welder would I need? Can I get by with a cheap MIG from Harbor Freight? I don't have experience but I'm willing to learn but is this something I would be better off farming out?

again, thanks for all the feedback.. this place is great!!!

63 340HP

The inexpensive MIG from HF will do the job, but some practice will help. The 220V units have a more stable arc, but the 110v units will work for the light gage of the frame and brackets.

The mounts I have seen from the frame are hand fabricated and located in the same place as the factory bracket, with metal extended down to the frame rail.



Unfortunately this is also one of the two locations where the serial number is located on top of the frame. Some brackets have a flange with weld inches on top of the frame rail that covers the serial number, other brackets run down the inside of the frame rail to provide the weld inches. With either bracket the fit between the holes in the tub and the bracket depends on how the body mount cushions line up (the crush height between the frame and body). With a little thought, a bolt-in bracket could be designed (requiring through-holes and crush sleeves in the frame rail). Any modification other than the factory bracket will have lasting consequences (not advised for the NCRS enthusiast).

Maybe someone can offer a manufactured bracket link?

The integrity of any shoulder-belt bracket welded to the frame is an improvement over the factory bracket mounted only to the fiberglass tub, but thin 16-gage sheetmetal bracket material may not provide much more strength than the factory mount. The force of an impact on the shoulder-belt will pull the brackets inward unless the brackets are reinforced. In a competition chassis a spreader bar inside the tub between the two shoulder-belt brackets is a system improvement (I think the C5/6 guys call the modern equivalent a 5-point harness-bar). The bar will get in the way of storage.

I have to offer a caution with hard mounted belt restraints (shoulder-belts mounted to the frame) and unreinforced seat mounts (seats mounted only to the fiberglass tub). During an impact the occupant and seat will try to move, and a belt system restraining only the the lap and upper torso tends to submarine the occupant under the dash. The seat breaks loose and the occupant slips under the (resulting) loose lap belt. This is why SCCA, NHRA, and SCORE tech rules require/recommend the seat mounts to be attached to the same cage or frame that the restraint mounts are attached to. The intent is to have the entire occupant restraint system: seat, belts, and mounts all attached to the same structure to resist motion as a unit (as the vehicle absorbs energy around the occupant).

The modern integrated seat and belt restraint systems work well, if the seat is rigidly mounted to a robust structure (the frame, unit-frame, or cage, something more rigid than a fiberglass tub). The C2 seat is far from modern in application, with no headrest and the hinged back employing the rather weak hockey-stick hinge and screw seat-back pivot. If the C2 seat back pivot system fails, the occupant is highly likely to submarine under the dash or risk ejection. The point to comprehend is that even the most robust modern restraint system will fail when the obsolete C2 seat or seat-mounts fail to offer protection.

If you choose to improve safety there are good reasons why eight-point cages and seat-mount/restraint cradles with attachment tabs incorporated into the cage are fairly standard minimum requirements in faster competition class racing.

There are safety improvements applicable to the C2, although the best improvement is a safe attentive driver.

Be careful out there

67pete

Most (all?) race harnesses are NOT approved for the street...they're better, just not approved!

Paul L

I don't know if this has any relevance to the discussion but here are mount brackets (and belt guides) that came with my belt set. I did not use them as the GM brackets were in place.



Instructions (poorly worded and flawed). Note that location of brackets as shown will interfere with convertible top frame lowering.

http://www.ecklers.com/assets/pdf/46069.pdf?

JoeCool66

yeah, I've seen those and the instructions from the Eckler's website. I really don't believe bolting that bracket through fiberglass will hold anything. I think it will just give you the 'feeling' you are secure but it will rip out in an accident. Unfortunately, mine is an early '66 and doesn't have the factory brackets.

This is so frustrating... there is no real solution unless I'm willing to tear into some significant frame mods. I don't intend to have my car judged but I really hate making these mods...

BADBIRDCAGE

This is so frustrating... there is no real solution unless I'm willing to tear into some significant frame mods. I don't intend to have my car judged but I really hate making these mods...[/QUOTE]

OK, I'll be the bad guy and ask it. WHY do you hate making these mods when they are for SAFETY? After all, if it wasn't a safety modification what would be the point? Asthetics?

If you are concerned about later sale to an NCRS type then don't make any modifications and enjoy the car as it was originally designed and built. There is nothing wrong with that.

Rich

JoeCool66

No bad guys here... it’s a fair question. When I bought this car I was looking for an original that I could preserve. Any changes/repairs I’ve done have always been with the general rule of ‘keep it looking stock – or as close as possible.’ Any mods (minor) I’ve done are reversible. I like the car stock and I believe it will hold it’s value that way (I don’t see myself selling but you never know).

Safety issues put a different slant on things since I do drive the car and I want to be around a good long time.

Here’s what I’ve gotten from the feedback:
*3-point are marginally safer than stock lap belts. Probably better in a minor crash.
*In a serious crash, its hasta la vista baby…. A much safer car would require extensive mods to the seats, seat mounts, lap belts, steering wheel.. ect.
*To properly secure a 3-point, it needs to be mounted to the frame in such a way that it is reinforced but also has some give. But going overboard with the mount is a waste since there would be other points of failure in a stock car.


New question: is it possible to make a secure mount to the frame without doing major mods? (no through-holes/crush sleeves). Perhaps using a combo of a custom bracket and a cable setup… maybe using the shock mounts. Has anyone done something like this?

Again, I’m looking for feedback from people that have a lot more experience than I do… If I’ve missed the boat on something, please straighten me out.

OCS1667

Joe what's the problem, You keep beating this to death. I sent you another group of photos.

Note the photo with the supplied parts does not show the brackets that the mfg. sent me that I bent to wield to the frame.

I told you I had taken the car to a shop [auto] They had a left, I paid them $20.00, and they did the deed. What's this talk, buying equip. Do you need a wielder, or are you confused as to what you want to do, are how to do it.

From the way you ask questions I would go directly to someone who has a mechanical background, and have him do it, before you hurt yourself, the car and spend money foolishy.

I'm not trying to speak down to you, but as a friend, have some do it for you.
Dennis

66since71

I think you are on the right track.. just a few comments

I assume the conclusion about "give" was a result of my remarks about energy management. Its not "give" that the anchors need for energy management, it is having something that will fail predictably (and consume some energy doing so) when you load it with 8 or 10 times your body weight. Failing fiberglass at the shoulder belt anchor may not be so bad..

Unless you put in a cage and anchor racing belts to that, I still think your best bet is the stock set up. But contrary to my remark above, I agree that you might consider a cable from the shoulder belt anchor to the frame. Something like the lap belts use. Apparently the "tanker" cars had such an anchor, instead of the anchor to the reinforcement plate behind the fiberglass. Noland Adams book has an explanation of how it fastened and worked.

Good luck what ever you do. Enjoy the car, just "be careful out there".

Paul L

Joe,
I don't understand the concern. If placed in the GM spot the Eckler's bracket emulates the GM setup. In fact it is a sturdier plate. Given that the lap belt mounts are anchored to the frame by cables (see pic) it is a pretty stout system.



If you wish to try the "tanker" setup, here you go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...y97/tanker.jpg

If you don't wish to weld on the frame, use the Eckler's bracket in the GM position and run a cable from the mounting bolt to a hole drilled in the frame rail. Attach with a self-tapping hex head bolt. But that is really overkill in my opinion. If you encounter a force so strong that it rip that metal plate through fiberglass at a 90* angle then you are already dead for other reasons.

BTW, this is the GM position.

JoeCool66

Sorry if I’m but give me a break… I’m planning on drilling holes and welding on my car… I want to be sure it’s worth it before I pull this trigger.

Dennis, I liked your setup the best. It was simple and had minimal mods. My only hesitation was from learning there is a frame serial number there somewhere. I’m going to try to find where exactly that is and that will probably be the deciding factor.

Plan B is Eckler’s bracket in the GM location (as long as it doesn’t interfere with the top/frame). I may add a backup cable for good measure.

Plan C is to buy a Volvo.

You guys have given me a lot to consider, thanks for all the input.

philip964

Hate to mention this, but you said you had a vert.

Riding around in a convertable without a roll bar is pretty dangerous with or without a shoulder belt.

First time I filled up with gas in my Corvette, that scared the *hit out of me.

James Dean's mechanic survived the fatal crash by being thrown from the Porsche. I could find no information if Dean was wearing a lap belt.

Paul L

Interesting thread . Lots of opinions. Good luck with whatever you do.

And you need not beat the dead horse: I research all my projects and seek advice.

Heck, you have elicted almost 500 views. Someone is interested in your project!

67pete

Why not bend a sturdy steel bar/plate around the frame where the factory mount would have been?

Nikko

Paul - Your setup looks great, but I wonder if it works with a convertible? I thought I remembered somebody saying that the top frame hit the retractor when it was down? Did you do the install yourself?

Thanks - Nick

Paul L

Nick,
I tried to make that point above. The Eckler's instructions are flawed in that their chosen location for the bracket interferes with convertible top operation. Although I have a coupe, the GM location should be OK for 'verts given 1967s came from the factory with the shoulder belt capability in place.

Yes, I did the installation myself. The inboard and outboard mounting studs at the seats were clean and the nuts came off nicely. I re-installed with anti-seize. At the back I simply located the threaded hole in the factory bracket through the rug with a sharp awl, made a short slit, and installed the hardware with the GM fine-thread allen-head screw.

magicv8

That's a good idea, but if i were doing it to my car, I would mount Venture van style retractors in the wells behind the seats at the outside-forward corners and have the belt feed up through slots. The retractors can be bracketed/cabled to the frame and threaded through a ring on the headrest.

Headrest? Don't tell me you safety ***** are driving Corvettes without headrests. The likelihood of rear whiplash injury is much greater than the likelihood of injury from contacting the steering wheel.

Paul L

Magic,
Got those also....

magicv8

so do I.

They each hold a pair of Sony speakers for high speed listening enjoyment with the top down.