NCRS Future
08-19-2007, 07:54 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NCRS Future
The following is a copy of the posting from an existing thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by stall View Post
NCRS Tech Board Wars?
................With the internet and forums like this one, where does the value of the NCRS lie? Especially when they know their judging guides are rift with errors and their response to people asking for corrections or clarifications is to banish them.
Has NCRS outlived its usefulness?
======================================== =========
There are only so many of us (alive) that bought these cars when they were new and remember what a new Corvette was like from the factory. The trend is to resto the earlier cars, newer motors, suspension and brakes. Why drive around in a car worth $50-100k with 40-50 year old motors, brakes and suspension? The muscle car guys figured it out! Resto means more $$$ to the people that want to enjoy driving their cars.
NCRS car? Been there done that. I had more pleasure out of ones that was not. Who cares about the over spray and chalk numbers? If they were like the factory, the mid year driver's door would stick up above the roof lines a little and the gaps would not be uniform nor would the body lines be as sharp as they are being restored. Who wants a "factory car" with bad gaps and the doors don't fit? Why have a 327/300hp when you can have a 400-500hp, Why have a 4 speed when you and have a 5 speed? Why have 6 inch rims instead of 8? .....why, why, why? All a mater of personal taste. Most of us are too old to remember how hard it was to stop a manual brake car or how your lower back hurt when you drove 4 hours on a road trip.
Only a mater of time before us old guys die off for the next generation to take over. Let then next generation take over now and change with the times.
My 2 cent.
dso
---------------------------------------------------------------
4 cents
After rethinking my previous post.
I guess there is a need for NCRS in respect to keeping the original Corvettes like they were from the factory, so generations to come will be able to see, touch and smell. It would be like my father's generation (75-90 years old now) keeping the Model A and 32 Ford original. This older generation fought and fought to keep these cars stock. They would turn up their noses at a modified 32. When our generation went to buy an original we had to lie to the seller and tell them we would keep it stock, so the seller would sell it to us. Look what is a stock restored 1932 is worth vs a street Rod? Some people (75-90 years old) would prefer an original, I'll take the hi-boy with a blower! If you don't think this will happen, look at the 55-57 Chevy's and the 60's muscle cars the same thing happen to these cars. The original owner did not want to sell it to someone if they knew they were going to "hot rod" his pride and joy.
The reason for the slow changes from generation to generation is due to technology. In the 30's we had newspapers and radios, in the 50's and 60's we had "Hot Rod" magazines, today we have computers and the internet. What this means is how we pass on what we do "today" is just a matter of putting your information on the internet and within minutes the whole world knows what you did or can do. When I was a kid I spent hours and hours reading and re-reading Hot Rod or Car Craft so I could build a car like what I saw on those pages. In the 30's they did not have a magazine to look at so all they had was what the neighbor did. We now have means to express ourselves or show the world what we did to our car in minutes.
Wake up people, let the old keep the stock-factory and let the next generation do what they want to make these cars hi-tech! Have two or more of divisions. NCRS (bone stock with the correct over spray, misfitting doors and round body lines), another for "factory correct exterior" (except allow the perfect seams, sharp body lines & doors that fit) and maybe another for modified cars. The clean body lines is what this about not the stupid drum brakes, 300hp motor with stock ignition or suspension that beat you up.
What would have happened if the the same stock 1932 group would have made another division? They could have made the money instead of the NSRA (National Street Rod Association). NSRA was smart they expanded the group of cars to include everything instead of just pre 1948's. If you do not do this NCRS will be like the group that restores 32 Fords, too old to remember or dead and there will be another group to take over like NSRA did.
Search through this forum it is happening now! Corvette owners want the same things the muscle cars have! But there is to much pressure to keep it stock and "NCRS" correct. Quit thinking like the Model T generation.
All this is "personal taste" gentleman.
BTW there were only a hand full of 435hp, automatic and AC cars, most of them were 300hp, 4 speed with NO AC with a really bad radio. NO, I don't like listening to the factory radio with all that road noise and YES, I hate the road noise from the "factory correct" jute matting.
How many real "certified document" cars are there? When you starting getting $100k for a car more are showing up, I would bet there are even a few wrecked and crushed ones alive today. Anyone can come up with paper work for a 435hp car for about $2500 to $10k. Ok, don't believe this and live in the dark. You are going to build a Corvette to sell. A 300hp car that is worth $50k or a 435hp car that is worth twice as much? Buy a 300hp car and paper work and then certify it as a 435hp. There isn't a name plate that hasn't been reproduced, all it takes is money. I wonder how many engine blocks have been re-stamped with "factory correct" serial numbers so it can be "certified" stock. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth; ok to do this but not ok to do that. As the prices of these parts get higher it give an incentive to make counterfit parts. The Camaro cross ram is an example of this. Stock fuel injection? Who knows and who cars just as long as it look correct. Why not bring down the cost if it looks correct. So why should a Corvette buyer buy a "documented" car instead of a clone for more money? Who cares if there is not a serial number on a part? If it looks correct save the money!
I talked to Jerry Geisler (Corvette Image. Yes, he knows me and yes, he knows how I hate bad gaps and mis-fitted doors on a coupe) two weeks ago, he said in 1 to 2 years everything will be in place to make a mid year roadster. The only hold up is the metal works, because they want it to be "factory correct". Dumb.............why spend the money for stampings when this could be fabricated with 2007 technology? Who is going to tear open the kick panels and see if the metal is "factory correct" and who cares? Why not make it cheaper and better so we can have our 2009(?) midyear now! When this happens where will the "Certified Top Notch" price is going to be...... down, down baby way down! The next generation will not care.
Ok, pick this apart and live in a closet only another 2 cents = 4 cents
(yes, I know open mouth insert foot)
dso
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by stall View Post
NCRS Tech Board Wars?
................With the internet and forums like this one, where does the value of the NCRS lie? Especially when they know their judging guides are rift with errors and their response to people asking for corrections or clarifications is to banish them.
Has NCRS outlived its usefulness?
======================================== =========
There are only so many of us (alive) that bought these cars when they were new and remember what a new Corvette was like from the factory. The trend is to resto the earlier cars, newer motors, suspension and brakes. Why drive around in a car worth $50-100k with 40-50 year old motors, brakes and suspension? The muscle car guys figured it out! Resto means more $$$ to the people that want to enjoy driving their cars.
NCRS car? Been there done that. I had more pleasure out of ones that was not. Who cares about the over spray and chalk numbers? If they were like the factory, the mid year driver's door would stick up above the roof lines a little and the gaps would not be uniform nor would the body lines be as sharp as they are being restored. Who wants a "factory car" with bad gaps and the doors don't fit? Why have a 327/300hp when you can have a 400-500hp, Why have a 4 speed when you and have a 5 speed? Why have 6 inch rims instead of 8? .....why, why, why? All a mater of personal taste. Most of us are too old to remember how hard it was to stop a manual brake car or how your lower back hurt when you drove 4 hours on a road trip.
Only a mater of time before us old guys die off for the next generation to take over. Let then next generation take over now and change with the times.
My 2 cent.
dso
---------------------------------------------------------------
4 cents
After rethinking my previous post.
I guess there is a need for NCRS in respect to keeping the original Corvettes like they were from the factory, so generations to come will be able to see, touch and smell. It would be like my father's generation (75-90 years old now) keeping the Model A and 32 Ford original. This older generation fought and fought to keep these cars stock. They would turn up their noses at a modified 32. When our generation went to buy an original we had to lie to the seller and tell them we would keep it stock, so the seller would sell it to us. Look what is a stock restored 1932 is worth vs a street Rod? Some people (75-90 years old) would prefer an original, I'll take the hi-boy with a blower! If you don't think this will happen, look at the 55-57 Chevy's and the 60's muscle cars the same thing happen to these cars. The original owner did not want to sell it to someone if they knew they were going to "hot rod" his pride and joy.
The reason for the slow changes from generation to generation is due to technology. In the 30's we had newspapers and radios, in the 50's and 60's we had "Hot Rod" magazines, today we have computers and the internet. What this means is how we pass on what we do "today" is just a matter of putting your information on the internet and within minutes the whole world knows what you did or can do. When I was a kid I spent hours and hours reading and re-reading Hot Rod or Car Craft so I could build a car like what I saw on those pages. In the 30's they did not have a magazine to look at so all they had was what the neighbor did. We now have means to express ourselves or show the world what we did to our car in minutes.
Wake up people, let the old keep the stock-factory and let the next generation do what they want to make these cars hi-tech! Have two or more of divisions. NCRS (bone stock with the correct over spray, misfitting doors and round body lines), another for "factory correct exterior" (except allow the perfect seams, sharp body lines & doors that fit) and maybe another for modified cars. The clean body lines is what this about not the stupid drum brakes, 300hp motor with stock ignition or suspension that beat you up.
What would have happened if the the same stock 1932 group would have made another division? They could have made the money instead of the NSRA (National Street Rod Association). NSRA was smart they expanded the group of cars to include everything instead of just pre 1948's. If you do not do this NCRS will be like the group that restores 32 Fords, too old to remember or dead and there will be another group to take over like NSRA did.
Search through this forum it is happening now! Corvette owners want the same things the muscle cars have! But there is to much pressure to keep it stock and "NCRS" correct. Quit thinking like the Model T generation.
All this is "personal taste" gentleman.
BTW there were only a hand full of 435hp, automatic and AC cars, most of them were 300hp, 4 speed with NO AC with a really bad radio. NO, I don't like listening to the factory radio with all that road noise and YES, I hate the road noise from the "factory correct" jute matting.
How many real "certified document" cars are there? When you starting getting $100k for a car more are showing up, I would bet there are even a few wrecked and crushed ones alive today. Anyone can come up with paper work for a 435hp car for about $2500 to $10k. Ok, don't believe this and live in the dark. You are going to build a Corvette to sell. A 300hp car that is worth $50k or a 435hp car that is worth twice as much? Buy a 300hp car and paper work and then certify it as a 435hp. There isn't a name plate that hasn't been reproduced, all it takes is money. I wonder how many engine blocks have been re-stamped with "factory correct" serial numbers so it can be "certified" stock. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth; ok to do this but not ok to do that. As the prices of these parts get higher it give an incentive to make counterfit parts. The Camaro cross ram is an example of this. Stock fuel injection? Who knows and who cars just as long as it look correct. Why not bring down the cost if it looks correct. So why should a Corvette buyer buy a "documented" car instead of a clone for more money? Who cares if there is not a serial number on a part? If it looks correct save the money!
I talked to Jerry Geisler (Corvette Image. Yes, he knows me and yes, he knows how I hate bad gaps and mis-fitted doors on a coupe) two weeks ago, he said in 1 to 2 years everything will be in place to make a mid year roadster. The only hold up is the metal works, because they want it to be "factory correct". Dumb.............why spend the money for stampings when this could be fabricated with 2007 technology? Who is going to tear open the kick panels and see if the metal is "factory correct" and who cares? Why not make it cheaper and better so we can have our 2009(?) midyear now! When this happens where will the "Certified Top Notch" price is going to be...... down, down baby way down! The next generation will not care.
Ok, pick this apart and live in a closet only another 2 cents = 4 cents
(yes, I know open mouth insert foot)
dso
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-20-2007 at 09:19 AM.
08-19-2007, 09:05 PM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bird Cages
Hello Tom:
Great, Jerry said about 1 year on roadsters, then the coupes to follow. I can not wait to build a NEW coupe.
I hate to think about the coupe "bird cages" I cut up for race cars.
BTW- Nice roadster.
Great, Jerry said about 1 year on roadsters, then the coupes to follow. I can not wait to build a NEW coupe.
I hate to think about the coupe "bird cages" I cut up for race cars.
BTW- Nice roadster.
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-20-2007 at 09:13 AM.
08-19-2007, 09:52 PM
#5
Safety Car
"Wake up people, let the old keep the stock-factory"
Sounds like you cant wait for us old guys to die off so you can tear the SXXT out of my 55 and make a drag car! Can you find it in your heart to give me a few more years to enjoy it?? Remember if your lucky you'll feel the same way!
Sounds like you cant wait for us old guys to die off so you can tear the SXXT out of my 55 and make a drag car! Can you find it in your heart to give me a few more years to enjoy it?? Remember if your lucky you'll feel the same way!
08-19-2007, 09:54 PM
#6
Hmm..thats a lot to think about and I agree to parts. I am probably included in what you consider the younger generation, I am 36....not young but probably on the beginning of the age group now owning midyear corvettes. I for one am restoring my corvette to pretty much NCRS specs, I love the retro rod look I just wouldn't do it to my car. Now if they had a reproduction midyear body on a tube chassis I would be all over that with an LS7 etc. I have a wide variety of cars to kind of suit the mood I am in. I have a 1960 Cadillac that has a chevy 383 with TPI, air bags etc, I have a 66 Chevy II SS with a 383, my 65 Vette, 3 C4 vettes, an H2 and an Avalanche. Since I have 2 kids I won't be taking my 65 out on long trip anyways. I probably think of all my other cars the way you do about your C2..I will just do with them what I want to and I think there is enough room for all of us, no matter how we do our cars. I am sure there are people on the Cadillac forum that cringe what I did to my caddy....but thats what makes the world go round....right? If I had it my way way I would have one of each, a perfect NCRS car and a tube chassis retro rod. I better start selling some stuff..lol
08-19-2007, 11:53 PM
#7
Race Director
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm 33 years old and doing a complete restoration back to original factory specs on my 67 convertible. The car has been in the family since 1973, and I came home from the hospital in it. I also have documentation on the car and the original drive train. If I didn't have all that, I might consider doing a resto-rod, but not with this car. Only if I had a "basket case" car would I do that.
08-20-2007, 09:17 AM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your 55
"Wake up people, let the old keep the stock-factory"
Sounds like you cant wait for us old guys to die off so you can tear the SXXT out of my 55 and make a drag car! Can you find it in your heart to give me a few more years to enjoy it?? Remember if your lucky you'll feel the same way!
Sounds like you cant wait for us old guys to die off so you can tear the SXXT out of my 55 and make a drag car! Can you find it in your heart to give me a few more years to enjoy it?? Remember if your lucky you'll feel the same way!
I have seen your car in person. Very nice car and I do not think a car like yours should be modified or one that is already done. I am only saying that there are more paths to travel down than the NCRS style Corvette and as time goes on there will be less people walking on them. I'm not that far behind you.
Sean and Chris,
My daughters are close to your age. Would have been nice to have a sons that think and love cars like you guys.
dso
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-21-2007 at 11:01 AM.
08-20-2007, 09:43 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
Most of you on this board have following my journey to the Top Flight of my 1963 Coupe. From the begining of this whole thing it was not meant to go by NCRS, however somewhere I thought it would be more challenging to restore this car back to factory specifictions, not only was it more challenging, but more expensive. I struggled through six years of trying to meet the NCRS Judging Guides, only to find some items in the JG are incorrect, and many more are not included that you get judged on.
I approached each and every judging event at the Chapter, Regional and yes, National level as a "learning experience". Each time I was judged I tried to correct the previous "faults" and found this to be VERY expensive. I was replacing good parts with original parts that I search and paid dearly for to obtain a few more points. Each time I was judged, something different was found that needed to be upgraded to a factory part.... going this route is not for the faint of heart, and it demands dedication and a deep pocket book.....I do admit that.
Within a single year I earned the Chapter, Regional and National Top Flight awards. Notice I said EARNED...nothing was given to me, in some cases my car was judged much closer then others, because of the condition of my car. Sure I got frustrated, mad, but never felt defeated. I just took my time, did more research, and dedicated myself to earn the NATIONAL Top Flight award.
I proud to say I am a member of the NCRS. Nothing and no organization is perfect, but the knowledge base that exists in this organization is unbelieiable. Sure, they get critical and some of it seems to be ridiculous, but remember its the final result...the cars that are on the judging floor are some of the finest examples of RESTORED and PRESERVED cars that exist. I don't think anybody can disagree at a NCRS event at any level you find prestine Corvettes.
OK, after six long years, I have gone through it all , and I have to say, when I look at those blue ribbons, I really feel a sense of accomplishment, pride, and I know the amount of knowledge I have learned along the way would not have bee the same if I did a restro rod. I know my 63 final product is one of the best in the country, because it was judged by a standard that all 63 Corvettes are judged on. I learned the reasons why the 1963 Corvette was built the way it was, and yes I do know many of the issues and things in the JG needs to be changed, but the people at NCRS to me are great, and yes Carlton, (63-64 Chief Judge) is on the the best folks I have dealt with and I feel they are VERY fair and understand a person who pours their heart and soul into a restoration. There are MANY folks I met along the way, that all have helped me understand the club, culture, and my car. It was well worth it.
I am proud to be an NCRS member, and feel if somebody wants to purchase an older Corvette, they all seem to go to an NCRS member to check the car out..why, because they know these cars.
It's not for everybody, but hey, what club is? Love the Restro Rods and love the mods people do, but I just wanted to have a Corvette they way it was when it left the factory....NCRS has a long future.
I approached each and every judging event at the Chapter, Regional and yes, National level as a "learning experience". Each time I was judged I tried to correct the previous "faults" and found this to be VERY expensive. I was replacing good parts with original parts that I search and paid dearly for to obtain a few more points. Each time I was judged, something different was found that needed to be upgraded to a factory part.... going this route is not for the faint of heart, and it demands dedication and a deep pocket book.....I do admit that.
Within a single year I earned the Chapter, Regional and National Top Flight awards. Notice I said EARNED...nothing was given to me, in some cases my car was judged much closer then others, because of the condition of my car. Sure I got frustrated, mad, but never felt defeated. I just took my time, did more research, and dedicated myself to earn the NATIONAL Top Flight award.
I proud to say I am a member of the NCRS. Nothing and no organization is perfect, but the knowledge base that exists in this organization is unbelieiable. Sure, they get critical and some of it seems to be ridiculous, but remember its the final result...the cars that are on the judging floor are some of the finest examples of RESTORED and PRESERVED cars that exist. I don't think anybody can disagree at a NCRS event at any level you find prestine Corvettes.
OK, after six long years, I have gone through it all , and I have to say, when I look at those blue ribbons, I really feel a sense of accomplishment, pride, and I know the amount of knowledge I have learned along the way would not have bee the same if I did a restro rod. I know my 63 final product is one of the best in the country, because it was judged by a standard that all 63 Corvettes are judged on. I learned the reasons why the 1963 Corvette was built the way it was, and yes I do know many of the issues and things in the JG needs to be changed, but the people at NCRS to me are great, and yes Carlton, (63-64 Chief Judge) is on the the best folks I have dealt with and I feel they are VERY fair and understand a person who pours their heart and soul into a restoration. There are MANY folks I met along the way, that all have helped me understand the club, culture, and my car. It was well worth it.
I am proud to be an NCRS member, and feel if somebody wants to purchase an older Corvette, they all seem to go to an NCRS member to check the car out..why, because they know these cars.
It's not for everybody, but hey, what club is? Love the Restro Rods and love the mods people do, but I just wanted to have a Corvette they way it was when it left the factory....NCRS has a long future.
Last edited by 1KULC7; 08-20-2007 at 09:50 AM.
08-20-2007, 02:46 PM
#10
You can have your cake...
I believe that purists have their place in the Corvette hobby. After all, the Corvette is and always has been the result of the best and brightest in the American automotive industry. To me, endeavoring to restoring or preserving Corvettes in their “as-built” state is a noble endeavor. I enjoy owning, riding in and driving in these time capsules. To think these cars were being produced when the Apollo missions were exploring space guided by analog dials and gauges with less micro-processing power than we have in our cell phones is an amazing thing.
On the other hand, as in any hobby, there are those who are absolutely obsessive-compulsive about minutia, and will fervently argue points that drive them into almost xenophobic fits that divide the Corvette community into two camps: the purists and every one else.
I see active (and reasonable) members of NCRS as the "keepers of the flame." In a world where it's a lot easier and affordable to modify than to restore or preserve, and where the best examples of original “correct” cars are tucked securely in aging boomers garages, it’s no wonder that there’s a groundswell towards modifying older Corvettes. In some ways, this whole issue is about the haves and have-nots. If you owned an all-original big block mid year, would you modify it? Probably not. If you acquired a run-of-the-mill, tired base model Corvette for a reasonable price, would you consider modifying it to drive on a regular basis? I would.
I’m thrilled how the miracle of modern technology has taken driving experience to the next level. How driving today's digitally engineered cars feels like you're rolling a dime on its edge. Brakes that are as fun to apply as throttle. Five-hundred plus horsepower that is as reliable and docile around town as a librarian's Volvo - until you put your foot in it. What’s not to love?
But what is it about Corvette's that made us all fall in love with them in the first place? I'm not a hopeless romantic, but there are some things that I hold dear as part of the fabric and fiber of my being. Some say love is only skin deep. Not for me, not when it comes to Corvettes. Almost every iteration of Corvette was THE automotive technological and styling marvel of its day. Look at the new 2008 C6; arguably the BEST performance car for the money on the planet. The same thing has been said about the Corvette for the past 50 years - and that was BEFORE shade-tree mechanics ever laid a wrench to them.
I appreciate both worlds. If I had a bigger bank account and more garage space, I’d be building a very fast, very modified ’69 big block vert to thrash about a track. In the meantime, based on the two vintage Corvettes I am fortunate to already own, I will endeavor to preserve and restore them to factory specs and appreciate the NCRS for being there as a resource and home for kindred spirits.
And if I start to become paranoid and xenophobic about originality or ramble on about building a Corvette Summer Stingray replica, just slap me upside the head - hard!
That’s what friends are for, right? 
NCRS #36051
On the other hand, as in any hobby, there are those who are absolutely obsessive-compulsive about minutia, and will fervently argue points that drive them into almost xenophobic fits that divide the Corvette community into two camps: the purists and every one else.
I see active (and reasonable) members of NCRS as the "keepers of the flame." In a world where it's a lot easier and affordable to modify than to restore or preserve, and where the best examples of original “correct” cars are tucked securely in aging boomers garages, it’s no wonder that there’s a groundswell towards modifying older Corvettes. In some ways, this whole issue is about the haves and have-nots. If you owned an all-original big block mid year, would you modify it? Probably not. If you acquired a run-of-the-mill, tired base model Corvette for a reasonable price, would you consider modifying it to drive on a regular basis? I would.
I’m thrilled how the miracle of modern technology has taken driving experience to the next level. How driving today's digitally engineered cars feels like you're rolling a dime on its edge. Brakes that are as fun to apply as throttle. Five-hundred plus horsepower that is as reliable and docile around town as a librarian's Volvo - until you put your foot in it. What’s not to love?
But what is it about Corvette's that made us all fall in love with them in the first place? I'm not a hopeless romantic, but there are some things that I hold dear as part of the fabric and fiber of my being. Some say love is only skin deep. Not for me, not when it comes to Corvettes. Almost every iteration of Corvette was THE automotive technological and styling marvel of its day. Look at the new 2008 C6; arguably the BEST performance car for the money on the planet. The same thing has been said about the Corvette for the past 50 years - and that was BEFORE shade-tree mechanics ever laid a wrench to them.
I appreciate both worlds. If I had a bigger bank account and more garage space, I’d be building a very fast, very modified ’69 big block vert to thrash about a track. In the meantime, based on the two vintage Corvettes I am fortunate to already own, I will endeavor to preserve and restore them to factory specs and appreciate the NCRS for being there as a resource and home for kindred spirits.
And if I start to become paranoid and xenophobic about originality or ramble on about building a Corvette Summer Stingray replica, just slap me upside the head - hard!
That’s what friends are for, right? NCRS #36051
Last edited by 66L36Coupe; 08-20-2007 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Added my NCRS member number.
08-20-2007, 03:02 PM
#11
Safety Car
I don't agree with the basic sentiment of the original poster. I'm 35 years old and an NCRS member.
Yes, sometimes the NCRS goes overboard with factory correctness and even many NCRS members (myself included) don't really want a top-flight car because they would be afraid to drive them. I don't see anything wrong with fixing and upgrading obvious flaws; for example, there's no reason not to use radial tires and fix really poor body lines. HOWEVER, I think the original poster misses the whole reason many of us love older cars. They take us back to a time when life was simpler (and many think, better).
I appreciate the older cars for what they are. No, they're not all safe and modern, but I appreciate the fact that old Corvettes were cutting edge back in their day. I appreciate the history behind our cars. I like the fact that I can work on them myself. If I want AC that works, modern handling and braking, a really nice factory stereo with a CD player, 30+ MPG fuel efficiency, six speeds, and 400 horsepower, I'LL BUY A NEW CORVETTE! And for what it costs to build a restomod properly, you can buy a newer Corvette plus a nice stock C1 or C2.
I don't think the comparison with Model A's is all that valid for one reason: Model A's are really primitive cars that aren't really that useable in stock form. Classic Corvettes drive just fine with a set of radial tires.
To each his own. I have no problem with people who want to build restomods. I think there's enough room for everyone. But I think there will always be owners, young and old, who want to enjoy their old Corvettes pretty much as the factory built them in the 1950's and '60's.
Yes, sometimes the NCRS goes overboard with factory correctness and even many NCRS members (myself included) don't really want a top-flight car because they would be afraid to drive them. I don't see anything wrong with fixing and upgrading obvious flaws; for example, there's no reason not to use radial tires and fix really poor body lines. HOWEVER, I think the original poster misses the whole reason many of us love older cars. They take us back to a time when life was simpler (and many think, better).
I appreciate the older cars for what they are. No, they're not all safe and modern, but I appreciate the fact that old Corvettes were cutting edge back in their day. I appreciate the history behind our cars. I like the fact that I can work on them myself. If I want AC that works, modern handling and braking, a really nice factory stereo with a CD player, 30+ MPG fuel efficiency, six speeds, and 400 horsepower, I'LL BUY A NEW CORVETTE! And for what it costs to build a restomod properly, you can buy a newer Corvette plus a nice stock C1 or C2.
I don't think the comparison with Model A's is all that valid for one reason: Model A's are really primitive cars that aren't really that useable in stock form. Classic Corvettes drive just fine with a set of radial tires.
To each his own. I have no problem with people who want to build restomods. I think there's enough room for everyone. But I think there will always be owners, young and old, who want to enjoy their old Corvettes pretty much as the factory built them in the 1950's and '60's.
08-20-2007, 11:17 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Missing the point
Hello Colin, Dan and Ryan,
You guys are missing the point, sorry if I offend you guys with NCRS cars. I always like to look at a well done car, not matter what it is. It is just to bad 'some'(1) people think they are better than others because they belong to a certain group of peers.
I would never modify a fuelie, swc, bb-midyear, bb-69, 70-lt or 78pace or anything worthy of restoring beyond the point of no return. But, I would put adjustable gas shocks or disc brakes on any drum brake car or tighten the gaps or sharpen the body lines no matter what it was.
Point 1. Why build a 300hp w/o AC as NCRS?? It cost you 30-50% more?? As of right now, there is no place in NCRS for the guy with the 300hp that has spend as much or more money "restoring" or "retro-mod" his car. I would hope everybody knows it is not a good investment build a 300hp points car and knows their car is not worth anything more belonging to NCRS without having it certified. So, unless you have a lot of money there is no point in starting such a project. The money would be better spent on upgrading the engine, suspension and brakes, then later when they have the money they can start their restoration. Anyone that has done a car knows you can not restore and drive a car because you have limited funds. By the time you get 30% done the parts you put on needs to be replaced. You have to be committed to restoration cause you can not do it half ***. The C1 & C2 owners have the worst suspension and brakes for something worth $25k to $100k. Let them up grade and be part of your group. Seems a little stupid to have a car worth that much and can not stop. Would you let your daughter or wife drive your car 50-70 mph with drum brakes and bias tires in the rain?
Point 2. Is the membership is growing? If it is not, what can be done to increase it? .......maybe open the range it cars by having different division??? Increasing the range of cars that are "judged" will only give more people incentives to join and be rewarded for their efforts.
dso
(1) some..... few, minority, little, tiny, 1 or 2, 3 or 4, handful, 1 percent, 2 percent, 3 percent and so on .
You guys are missing the point, sorry if I offend you guys with NCRS cars. I always like to look at a well done car, not matter what it is. It is just to bad 'some'(1) people think they are better than others because they belong to a certain group of peers.
I would never modify a fuelie, swc, bb-midyear, bb-69, 70-lt or 78pace or anything worthy of restoring beyond the point of no return. But, I would put adjustable gas shocks or disc brakes on any drum brake car or tighten the gaps or sharpen the body lines no matter what it was.
Point 1. Why build a 300hp w/o AC as NCRS?? It cost you 30-50% more?? As of right now, there is no place in NCRS for the guy with the 300hp that has spend as much or more money "restoring" or "retro-mod" his car. I would hope everybody knows it is not a good investment build a 300hp points car and knows their car is not worth anything more belonging to NCRS without having it certified. So, unless you have a lot of money there is no point in starting such a project. The money would be better spent on upgrading the engine, suspension and brakes, then later when they have the money they can start their restoration. Anyone that has done a car knows you can not restore and drive a car because you have limited funds. By the time you get 30% done the parts you put on needs to be replaced. You have to be committed to restoration cause you can not do it half ***. The C1 & C2 owners have the worst suspension and brakes for something worth $25k to $100k. Let them up grade and be part of your group. Seems a little stupid to have a car worth that much and can not stop. Would you let your daughter or wife drive your car 50-70 mph with drum brakes and bias tires in the rain?
Point 2. Is the membership is growing? If it is not, what can be done to increase it? .......maybe open the range it cars by having different division??? Increasing the range of cars that are "judged" will only give more people incentives to join and be rewarded for their efforts.
dso
(1) some..... few, minority, little, tiny, 1 or 2, 3 or 4, handful, 1 percent, 2 percent, 3 percent and so on .
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-21-2007 at 11:01 AM.
08-21-2007, 01:39 AM
#13
Safety Car
Definitely no offense taken Dean. You started a good discussion, and that's what it's all about!
I agree with your first point above. If you're dealing with a car that'll never be super collectible, why not build what you want? If you're going to be driving the car, I think you'd be crazy not to make some improvements to the car to increase safety and driveability.
As far as restoration cost versus value, it's a simple truth that most classic cars will cost more to restore than they'll be worth when done. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth restoring most cars, because we get a lot of other rewards from restoring them. Heck, I've got a '68 Mustang coupe (I know, no jokes please!) sitting in my back yard. That car is a much more extreme example of putting more money into a car than it'll be worth than any C1 or C2 Corvette. It'll cost a ton more to restore than it'll be worth at the end. It'll also cost a lot more to build a restomod out of it than the restomod will be worth. Does that mean the car isn't worth doing anything with and I should just haul it off to the crusher? Ok, I know, it's a Mustang, but still... No, it just means that if I do anything with it I better be doing it for some reason other than financial gain.
So I guess all that is a long way of answering your question of why restore a car that's not ultra-collectible? The short answer is because someone wants to restore the car to factory specs just for the fun and reward of restoring it. I agree that with a car like this, and not on an ultra-collectible (because of value issues), you might as well make some minor improvements if you plan on driving the car. The point I was trying to make in my post above was only that some of us like the experience of owning a driving a vintage Corvette as it came from the factory, albeit with some minor improvements.
If you're taking issue with the attitude of some NCRS people that, for example, a yellow '64 coupe with the base 250 hp motor should only be restored as a yellow 250 hp car with drum brakes and bias ply tires, then I agree with you. However, I think most NCRS people recognize that people want to drive their cars, and most of these cars will never be top-flight show cars.
I don't know whether NCRS membership is increasing or decreasing, but I think that as long as there are people who love old Corvettes there will be an NCRS.
I agree with your first point above. If you're dealing with a car that'll never be super collectible, why not build what you want? If you're going to be driving the car, I think you'd be crazy not to make some improvements to the car to increase safety and driveability.
As far as restoration cost versus value, it's a simple truth that most classic cars will cost more to restore than they'll be worth when done. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth restoring most cars, because we get a lot of other rewards from restoring them. Heck, I've got a '68 Mustang coupe (I know, no jokes please!) sitting in my back yard. That car is a much more extreme example of putting more money into a car than it'll be worth than any C1 or C2 Corvette. It'll cost a ton more to restore than it'll be worth at the end. It'll also cost a lot more to build a restomod out of it than the restomod will be worth. Does that mean the car isn't worth doing anything with and I should just haul it off to the crusher? Ok, I know, it's a Mustang, but still... No, it just means that if I do anything with it I better be doing it for some reason other than financial gain.
So I guess all that is a long way of answering your question of why restore a car that's not ultra-collectible? The short answer is because someone wants to restore the car to factory specs just for the fun and reward of restoring it. I agree that with a car like this, and not on an ultra-collectible (because of value issues), you might as well make some minor improvements if you plan on driving the car. The point I was trying to make in my post above was only that some of us like the experience of owning a driving a vintage Corvette as it came from the factory, albeit with some minor improvements.
If you're taking issue with the attitude of some NCRS people that, for example, a yellow '64 coupe with the base 250 hp motor should only be restored as a yellow 250 hp car with drum brakes and bias ply tires, then I agree with you. However, I think most NCRS people recognize that people want to drive their cars, and most of these cars will never be top-flight show cars.
I don't know whether NCRS membership is increasing or decreasing, but I think that as long as there are people who love old Corvettes there will be an NCRS.
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
#14
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely no offense taken Dean. You started a good discussion, and that's what it's all about!
I agree with your first point above. If you're dealing with a car that'll never be super collectible, why not build what you want? If you're going to be driving the car, I think you'd be crazy not to make some improvements to the car to increase safety and driveability.
As far as restoration cost versus value, it's a simple truth that most classic cars will cost more to restore than they'll be worth when done. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth restoring most cars, because we get a lot of other rewards from restoring them. Heck, I've got a '68 Mustang coupe (I know, no jokes please!) sitting in my back yard. That car is a much more extreme example of putting more money into a car than it'll be worth than any C1 or C2 Corvette. It'll cost a ton more to restore than it'll be worth at the end. It'll also cost a lot more to build a restomod out of it than the restomod will be worth. Does that mean the car isn't worth doing anything with and I should just haul it off to the crusher? Ok, I know, it's a Mustang, but still... No, it just means that if I do anything with it I better be doing it for some reason other than financial gain.
So I guess all that is a long way of answering your question of why restore a car that's not ultra-collectible? The short answer is because someone wants to restore the car to factory specs just for the fun and reward of restoring it. I agree that with a car like this, and not on an ultra-collectible (because of value issues), you might as well make some minor improvements if you plan on driving the car. The point I was trying to make in my post above was only that some of us like the experience of owning a driving a vintage Corvette as it came from the factory, albeit with some minor improvements.
If you're taking issue with the attitude of some NCRS people that, for example, a yellow '64 coupe with the base 250 hp motor should only be restored as a yellow 250 hp car with drum brakes and bias ply tires, then I agree with you. However, I think most NCRS people recognize that people want to drive their cars, and most of these cars will never be top-flight show cars.
I don't know whether NCRS membership is increasing or decreasing, but I think that as long as there are people who love old Corvettes there will be an NCRS.
I agree with your first point above. If you're dealing with a car that'll never be super collectible, why not build what you want? If you're going to be driving the car, I think you'd be crazy not to make some improvements to the car to increase safety and driveability.
As far as restoration cost versus value, it's a simple truth that most classic cars will cost more to restore than they'll be worth when done. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth restoring most cars, because we get a lot of other rewards from restoring them. Heck, I've got a '68 Mustang coupe (I know, no jokes please!) sitting in my back yard. That car is a much more extreme example of putting more money into a car than it'll be worth than any C1 or C2 Corvette. It'll cost a ton more to restore than it'll be worth at the end. It'll also cost a lot more to build a restomod out of it than the restomod will be worth. Does that mean the car isn't worth doing anything with and I should just haul it off to the crusher? Ok, I know, it's a Mustang, but still... No, it just means that if I do anything with it I better be doing it for some reason other than financial gain.
So I guess all that is a long way of answering your question of why restore a car that's not ultra-collectible? The short answer is because someone wants to restore the car to factory specs just for the fun and reward of restoring it. I agree that with a car like this, and not on an ultra-collectible (because of value issues), you might as well make some minor improvements if you plan on driving the car. The point I was trying to make in my post above was only that some of us like the experience of owning a driving a vintage Corvette as it came from the factory, albeit with some minor improvements.
If you're taking issue with the attitude of some NCRS people that, for example, a yellow '64 coupe with the base 250 hp motor should only be restored as a yellow 250 hp car with drum brakes and bias ply tires, then I agree with you. However, I think most NCRS people recognize that people want to drive their cars, and most of these cars will never be top-flight show cars.
I don't know whether NCRS membership is increasing or decreasing, but I think that as long as there are people who love old Corvettes there will be an NCRS.
with you on everything, except unless you have gone through the building of a car(1) you really do not know how difficult it is or how much it really cost. After awhile you quit keeping receipts or counting hours and starting hiding the cc bill and check book. I am not talking about the person that short cuts and hides what you do not see, I am talking about the *****(2). From the looks of this forum there are a lot(3) of builders with "top-flight" cars that are not points cars. Why not give them credit where credit is due? Look at all the C1 conversions, clones(4) and vintage race cars. Let these guys stand on the podium and get what they 'also' deserve. dso
(1) car: any frame off or scratch build, NCRS, NSRA, NHRA, SCCA, race, street, show, ....and so on.
(2) *****: myself included, perfect, detail, re-does it, not good enough, spends to much time re-thing, ... and so on.
(3) lot: clones, race cars and restro-mods.
(4) clones: no paper work, perfect, excellent, top-flight, used good resto parts without serial numbers, ..... and so on.
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-21-2007 at 11:00 AM.
08-21-2007, 10:41 AM
#15
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Washougal WA
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a 1960 Cadillac that has a chevy 383 with TPI, air bags etc, I have a 66 Chevy II SS with a 383, my 65 Vette, 3 C4 vettes, an H2 and an Avalanche. ...... I am sure there are people on the Cadillac forum that cringe what I did to my caddy....but thats what makes the world go round....right? If I had it my way way I would have one of each, a perfect NCRS car and a tube chassis retro rod.
Email me pictures of your Cadillac I would love to have them.
dso