Martz Chassis C1 front suspension
08-12-2007, 02:02 PM
#63
Melting Slicks
Hey Bill..
Just wondering how your car worked out...and if you made the the 1500 mile trip. Have you had to do anything else to the car. Pressure valve, springs, alignment..etc.
Has it settled any more...what is the height compared to stock, at this time.....if you made the trip.
Thanks...Stan M.
08-12-2007, 02:55 PM
#64
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St. Jude Donor '07
Stan
thanks for thinking to ask...
the trip is over, 1500 miles in 2 days is getting to be hard on my butt, but the car did pretty good. (btw, averaged 17.8mpg running the a/c the whole distance...
)
the 'challenge' of the moment is that the rack seems to be too fast and too light feeling; the slightest movement of the wheel is enough to start a lane change and cornering on an interstate on ramp/off ramp can be a bit hairy because of the oversteer tendency, especially if the pavement is rough or uneven. but (again), the steering is steady and true straight ahead, even to speeds over 100. parking is a 1-fingered joy and around town is tolerable. i drove my 99 GMC 4wd pickup yesterday and it's feel was VERY heavy in comparison...
i have a new rack to install (3-1/4 turns rather than the 2-1/4 turns of the presently installed rack) and a pressure reducing kit to install in the power steering pump in order to more closely match the GM pump's pressure to the T-bird rack.
i don't have the foggiest idea what the 'stock' ride height should/would be..... we thought the 350# springs were going to be too stiff and have to be changed, but i think the ride is as hard/soft (take your pick) as the original; and because of the urethane bushings on the a-frame inner shafts, the the suspension doesn't have that harsh metal-to-metal feel of the original suspension. i'm quite pleased with the ride.
the front ride height has settled down to about 2 inches lower than it was originally (most tell me that it was too high to start with...
) not sure if it will settle more or not. right now it is about 27" at the wheel opening lip at the center of the wheel with 215x75x15 tires..
can't tell what the rear height has done (i have airshocks on the back to keep the 2-1/2" tailpipes from hitting the brake line support on the rear axle), but i would imagine relocating the battery to the trunk will have lowered it a bit too. right now it's about 28" (the height i usually keep it at) at the wheel opening lip at the center of the wheel with 215x75x15 tires.
the front track, with 5/16" spacers behind each front wheel is about 2-1/2 inches narrower than the rear track, but the owner's manual says the stock front track is 2" narrower than the back (57" vs 59"), so i guess that's close (looks funny, but like the 'rake', i'll get used to it...; or i may go back to the 8" rims)
Bill
thanks for thinking to ask...
the trip is over, 1500 miles in 2 days is getting to be hard on my butt, but the car did pretty good. (btw, averaged 17.8mpg running the a/c the whole distance...
)the 'challenge' of the moment is that the rack seems to be too fast and too light feeling; the slightest movement of the wheel is enough to start a lane change and cornering on an interstate on ramp/off ramp can be a bit hairy because of the oversteer tendency, especially if the pavement is rough or uneven. but (again), the steering is steady and true straight ahead, even to speeds over 100. parking is a 1-fingered joy and around town is tolerable. i drove my 99 GMC 4wd pickup yesterday and it's feel was VERY heavy in comparison...
i have a new rack to install (3-1/4 turns rather than the 2-1/4 turns of the presently installed rack) and a pressure reducing kit to install in the power steering pump in order to more closely match the GM pump's pressure to the T-bird rack.
i don't have the foggiest idea what the 'stock' ride height should/would be..... we thought the 350# springs were going to be too stiff and have to be changed, but i think the ride is as hard/soft (take your pick) as the original; and because of the urethane bushings on the a-frame inner shafts, the the suspension doesn't have that harsh metal-to-metal feel of the original suspension. i'm quite pleased with the ride.
the front ride height has settled down to about 2 inches lower than it was originally (most tell me that it was too high to start with...
) not sure if it will settle more or not. right now it is about 27" at the wheel opening lip at the center of the wheel with 215x75x15 tires..can't tell what the rear height has done (i have airshocks on the back to keep the 2-1/2" tailpipes from hitting the brake line support on the rear axle), but i would imagine relocating the battery to the trunk will have lowered it a bit too. right now it's about 28" (the height i usually keep it at) at the wheel opening lip at the center of the wheel with 215x75x15 tires.
the front track, with 5/16" spacers behind each front wheel is about 2-1/2 inches narrower than the rear track, but the owner's manual says the stock front track is 2" narrower than the back (57" vs 59"), so i guess that's close (looks funny, but like the 'rake', i'll get used to it...; or i may go back to the 8" rims)
Bill
08-12-2007, 03:15 PM
#65
Melting Slicks
Hello again Bill...
Glad to hear your trip was trouble free.....I know that the first time out can be real problematic.
I'll bet that the 3 1/4 rack will dial in the steering just right (with the pressure valve). I'd be particularly interested in how that works out.....so drop us a post when you get 'er done if you can....
I guess mounting the TCI kit lower down or higher up on the frame would be real difficult...for different height attitudes wouldn't it? I think the ride height looks good on yours ...just curious, how one might dial it in, on different applications.
Nearly 18 miles to the gallon...man that's great. I had always wondered how the vintage FI did on fuel. Wish I had one......they don't grow on trees though. Nice!
Thanks...Stan M.
Glad to hear your trip was trouble free.....I know that the first time out can be real problematic.
I'll bet that the 3 1/4 rack will dial in the steering just right (with the pressure valve). I'd be particularly interested in how that works out.....so drop us a post when you get 'er done if you can....
I guess mounting the TCI kit lower down or higher up on the frame would be real difficult...for different height attitudes wouldn't it? I think the ride height looks good on yours ...just curious, how one might dial it in, on different applications.
Nearly 18 miles to the gallon...man that's great. I had always wondered how the vintage FI did on fuel. Wish I had one......they don't grow on trees though. Nice!
Thanks...Stan M.
08-12-2007, 04:43 PM
#67
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St. Jude Donor '07
seeing as how the new front crossmember bolts to the original crossmember holes and welds a tab to the frame in the back, it would be easy to fabricate spacers to raise the frame. but there is probably a practical limit to it, and longer upper a-frames and longer coil springs would have to be used.
now with the Meyer or Martz, i would guess that all you would have to do is place a spacer between the crossmember and the frame as their suspension is a module; unlike the TCI which requires welding in new spring towers (which is also the new inner a-frame support)
Bill
Last edited by wmf62; 08-12-2007 at 05:12 PM.
08-12-2007, 05:14 PM
#68
Melting Slicks
Thanks Bill..
I was thinking about moving the top coil tower bracket down too...thereby coplicating the issue....but using the same a-arms and springs.
It probably would be easier to just lengthen the spring and change the a-arms...providing the a-arm dimension isn't too difficult to determine. I hadn't considered that
This is the only IFS that I have seen that uses coil springs. Do you know of any other?
Stan
I was thinking about moving the top coil tower bracket down too...thereby coplicating the issue....but using the same a-arms and springs.
It probably would be easier to just lengthen the spring and change the a-arms...providing the a-arm dimension isn't too difficult to determine. I hadn't considered that
This is the only IFS that I have seen that uses coil springs. Do you know of any other?
Stan
Last edited by Stan's Customs; 08-12-2007 at 05:16 PM.
08-12-2007, 05:26 PM
#69
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St. Jude Donor '07
Stan
never thought of lowering the spring tower, but that could be done, within limits: a t-bolt has to fit into the slot, between the top of the frame and the underside of the spring tower, to anchor the inner top a-frame shaft;
longer a-frames shouldn't be a problem as i had them make up new upper ones that were 1-1/4" longer than the ones they originally supplied because the original ones did not center in the slots to allow enough space/movement for adjusting camber and caster.
and, if i had it to do over, i would consider having both the upper and lower a-frames made an additonal 1" or so longer so that the front track was wider.
Bill
never thought of lowering the spring tower, but that could be done, within limits: a t-bolt has to fit into the slot, between the top of the frame and the underside of the spring tower, to anchor the inner top a-frame shaft;
longer a-frames shouldn't be a problem as i had them make up new upper ones that were 1-1/4" longer than the ones they originally supplied because the original ones did not center in the slots to allow enough space/movement for adjusting camber and caster.
and, if i had it to do over, i would consider having both the upper and lower a-frames made an additonal 1" or so longer so that the front track was wider.
Bill
08-12-2007, 06:59 PM
#70
Melting Slicks
Bill...
... could the t-bolt be fabricated differently so that it was independent of the coil tower? If so how much height could be gained...about?
...And would the travel of a longer a- arm affect anything else adversly.
Stan..
... could the t-bolt be fabricated differently so that it was independent of the coil tower? If so how much height could be gained...about?
...And would the travel of a longer a- arm affect anything else adversly.
Stan..
08-12-2007, 07:33 PM
#71
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St. Jude Donor '07
i was just thinking about that...
it could be possible to make the top inner a-frame shaft attach to a pair of lugs welded on top of the spring tower, and use shims (rather than slots & t-bolts) to adjust camber and caster in the same way as later suspensions do. BUT you would have to mock it up and get your alignment pretty close before permanently welding the lugs in place. the t-bolts/slots provide a LOT more movement for adjustability.
upper a-frame
lower a-frame
most modern suspensions use unequal length upper and lower a-frames (and these are no exception); but i haven't got a clue as to the limits of their 'unequalness'....
retaining the use of the t-bolts, the towers probably couldn't be lowered more than 1/2 - 3/4 inch. if another method of supporting/adjusting the inner shaft, then the tower support could be lowered no more than 1 - 1-1/4 inch.
Bill
08-12-2007, 07:39 PM
#72
Melting Slicks
Hmmm.....food for thought.
Have you ever seen any other coil spring set up other than TCI...?
Stan...
Have you ever seen any other coil spring set up other than TCI...?
Stan...
08-12-2007, 07:58 PM
#73
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St. Jude Donor '07
and i'm sure there are a lot more.
Bill
btw: you could get an air-ride suspension if you just want to raise and lower at will....
08-12-2007, 08:28 PM
#74
Melting Slicks
Say ...thats right, I can just use the air bags off my motorhome during the off season...They go flat after 6 months anyway, give them something to do....heh heh!
I'll look at Fatman again...I didn't think they had anything for the C1's but its been a long time since I looked at them. Haven't seen any other offerings other than the ones often mentioned on the C1 forums (Myers, Morrison etc.)in my research.
Stan
I'll look at Fatman again...I didn't think they had anything for the C1's but its been a long time since I looked at them. Haven't seen any other offerings other than the ones often mentioned on the C1 forums (Myers, Morrison etc.)in my research.
Stan
08-14-2007, 10:43 PM
#75
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just a thought
1. You can install a coil over by installing this type of coil over.
This type of coil over fits the upper spring pocket and allow a coil over converstion with the M2 type of upper spring pocket. I am sure Meyer will exchange your lower arms for coil over arms or you can modify your lower arms to take the coil over. Would depend on how the control arms are made and what they use to locate the lower part of the coil spring. In some cases you might be able to get away with a "T" mount on the lower shock mount.
2. Swap out or make your cross member the SuperRide type or TCI deluxe setup.
Heidts
TCI
You are most likely already in deep but you could fabricate this will a little pre-planing.
Just remember when you raise or lower the location of the control arms you change your suspension geometry. Draw it out first on paper then cut and weld.
Here is a helpful link:
http://www.stockcarproducts.com/pstech3.htm
http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/ForceBasedRC_1.htm
Good Luck!
dso
This type of coil over fits the upper spring pocket and allow a coil over converstion with the M2 type of upper spring pocket. I am sure Meyer will exchange your lower arms for coil over arms or you can modify your lower arms to take the coil over. Would depend on how the control arms are made and what they use to locate the lower part of the coil spring. In some cases you might be able to get away with a "T" mount on the lower shock mount.
2. Swap out or make your cross member the SuperRide type or TCI deluxe setup.
HeidtsTCI
You are most likely already in deep but you could fabricate this will a little pre-planing.
Just remember when you raise or lower the location of the control arms you change your suspension geometry. Draw it out first on paper then cut and weld.
Here is a helpful link:
http://www.stockcarproducts.com/pstech3.htm
http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/ForceBasedRC_1.htm
Good Luck!
dso
Last edited by deanoshiro; 08-14-2007 at 10:45 PM.
08-15-2007, 04:09 AM
#76
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St. Jude Donor '07
shimmed pump relief valve and changed out rack to 3-1/4 turns from 2-1/4 turns and steering is more stable. still is 'quick' & light but more controllable. biggest problem now is oversteer.
Bill
Bill
08-15-2007, 06:59 PM
#80
Melting Slicks
Stan..