blubu

Did you happen to see any vins for sale also? With matching titles or rosette rivets.Did You? The trim tags can be bought online that is legal
I dont understand how any more of that would be out in the open?

blubu

Didnt see any rosette rivets and vin plates with matching titles for sale Did you? AS far as the trim tags that from what I understand legal
I dont see how any more than trim tags would be in the open?

waynec

Did you take a '32 Ford tag & title with you? What about for the Cobra, you had a Cobra tag & title? Or did the state issue you a new tag & title based on your receipts for the parts? My guess is the latter.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me there is no legitimate reason to buy tag & title for a Corvette... the likely purpose is to deceive a future buyer (for illegitimate profit) or the state (to avoid a state inspection for legitimate serial numbers, or stolen parts, or taxes, or roadworthiness), because as you say, if you have the receipts for all the parts you used to build a car from the ground up, the state would issue you a tag & title after inspecting the vehicle (but it won't be a serial previously assigned a factory-built car).

If it were considered legal and above-board, they'd allow you to openly present the tag & title (and the purchase receipt for them), along with proof the titled car was scrapped and the receipts for the parts you used to build the car, and they'd title your creation with that serial.... but they don't, and it isn't.

Perhaps not in this case, but it's possible a tag & title you buy could be from a stolen or known-scrapped car, and the car you spent megabucks and megahours to build could be confiscated when you go to register the change of title owner (good luck convincing them you only bought a tag & title).

I realize my car could be stolen, and I don't WANT the state to make it any easier for the thieves to profit by being lax about tags & titles.

Jim Dillon

Mark, I have experienced this issue from a couple of different angles. I had a 66 360hp Chevelle stolen and I found it for sale in the local paper 11 months later. I went after the guy (member of a local gang that stole cars)in spite of the fact State Farm refused and he ended up going to prison. He changed the vin plate and we got him for altering state documents. I also represented criminal defendants for auto theft cases as well as such things as fabricating the little license plate tags (a five year felony) and I was the plaintiff's attorney in a pretty big civil case representing the owner of a V-16 Cadillac that was stolen and we recovered it on the east coast with changed numbers as well. In all cases the court looks to the intent to deceive (among other mattters of course) and I have heard some what I consider to be ridiculous arguments as to why it was not deception. We can argue over this issue in this forum but in the courtroom when the subject of fraud comes up the issue becomes it will boil down to what you are holding the car out as and what was your intent because specific intent becomes a very important component of the case.

One of the points I was trying to make is that people like to think that the larger the part with the VIN attched makes it more legitimate and that is not the case. It is not the size of the piece but the intent of the person who is using and/or attaching the plate to a vehicle that it did not come attached to.

If a Grand Sport has VIN numbers attached they very likely are saying that it is number such and such and it has been altered to look like a Grand Sport. It is a real Corvette but no matter how much magic dust you sprinkle on it, it does not become Grand Sport number 6 (or would that be #7). I do not believe anyone is stupid enough to attempt to pass it off as the real deal. I hope I did not misunderstand your question as I am not up to speed on phantom numbers on Grand Sports.-Jim

JohnZ

Jeff Leach's Mid-America Grand Sports start out as production coupe bodies - he cuts the front and rear clips off and bonds on his own, and they keep their original VIN and trim tags; that's why GM hasn't shut him down. His cars are considered "modifications" to the original car, not a "reproduction" of the Grand Sport body, and are titled just like the original Corvette they started out as.

The GS I built from a D&D kit (#39) was titled as a "1963 Chevrolet", with the VIN "DDGS039".

FASTZ

I have forwarded contact info to those members here that were interested in buying the tag and title.I have advised the guy after reading the comments here on the forum not to sell it.Thanks

Loren Smith

I think in Texas, if you build a new hot rod, the state will not allow you to title it as a 32 Ford, etc. As such, you will have to comply with the difficult emissions requirements. As such, forget about building from scratch a rat rod with a carbureted 327. This is where the market for old titles comes in.

There are other states that are more progressive and allow you to title a newly built vehicle as a 32 Ford, etc., and escape emissions and other tough new car regulations. I myself wouldn't mind seeing more people build new 57 Corvettes, with Billy Dawson or SRIII frames and Project 57 bodies, than 32 Fords!

willyv

It's still a pretty slippery slope as to what is a restoration vs 'kit' type car. What has to be intact to really qualify as a restoration?
I have a '63 that I'm bringing back from being a dedicated drag car. The motor is different, I have replaced the back-halfed frame with a C-4 based tube frame and will replace much of the glass to fix the tubs, etc. Still a 63. Hopefully it will be better than it came. Definately not NCRS material. I'm building it to drive, because I love the mid-years and because this will be my dream car. Maybe my daughter will change out the 6spd but it won't be sold in my lifetime. But...if I were buiding it to sell, if the body had been hit on the pass side and if the VIN rail area had been replaced,... If this was my legacy car and I bought another wreck to use to restore it and got most of my parts from that car- where's the line?
I don't agree with building a car to fit a VIN plate but I've seen or read of restorations that came close. I guess the hard line is putting VIN plates on another intact or mostly vehicle.

snydes

Man, I don't know if I should swat at this bee hive... but if I'm understanding Jim Dillon correctly, I'd say his statements make the most sense to me. If your intent is not to decieve, then I think it's ok, but in reality, somebody somewhere down the road will. I recall a Mopar on BJ last year, the guy outright said it was a re-body because the original body was destroyed in a structure fire. I think thats alright, and I wouldn't have a problem buying (for less $$ than a "documented" car) a well done Corvette, musclecar, or whatever that was in a similar situation as long as the seller is completely outright and honest about it. The problem is with these cars, one of those subsequent owners will sell the car and convieniently "forget" that information. Thats the problem.

Jim Dillon

Everyone reading this thread knows what they are doing when they attach a VIN plate to a car as long as we leave all forms of explanation or reasoning by the wayside. If the plate belongs on that car then it is OK. Any car (lets say a 1963 Corvette VIN #000122) can be altered to where almost nothing original is left but in spite of all the modifications it is still #122. The trouble lies when we try to reason how we can attach a plate to a vehicle where the plate has no history with the car.

As to what can happen in the future I would assume many more Corvettes will be transformed into cars that may be questionable in terms of equipment and originality. Lets hope that the future Corvette buyers are not any more gullible than necessary.-Jim

willyv

Well said, Seaside! Sad but true. Maybe the sales value determines what's acceptable. Probably a good thing that I can't afford any of the questionable ones.

Procrastination Racing

This is a dilemma that has run its course several times in vintage racing. A car is totaled and rebuilt in its racing lifetime. Years later, the scrapped tub or firewall or old roll bar or whatever is used to build a car. Suddenly, you have two of the one car.

It is a lot like the old joke a friend used when talking about how to fix some hopeless cars - jack up the radiator cap and park a new body under it.

Since the VIN plate is the most legal piece that determines what a car is, then I guess you could legally replace every other piece but it in a car and stay legal. The problem is some want to replace all those other pieces at one time.

67pete

What about 1953 Corvette #003....what is real?

Procrastination Racing

This is a big worry for many. To others, it is just restoration to the extreme. You take this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...6173952&rd=1,1


And turn it into this:



And that isn't just a thought, there are cars that are that way.

Procrastination Racing

Actually, I couldn't find a picture of a red/black FI convertible so I used the red/red.

There was no mention of a title. Some hint at it in the auction, so you know it is there, but to avoid eBay's title selling policy. So after you build this car, you may still have to get a title. Of course, that isn't that hard, between the title services in Alabama and Nevada, and with so many states now having no titles on cars over 25 years or before 1975 or whatever.

Plastic Pig

The Ebay links are long dead now but here are some nice before and after pics.

philip964

I am told by my Ferrari guys all you need is the serial number.

I understand there are now two Ferraris one retreived from being burned crushed and buried 40 years ago, and one created from scratch complete with fake barn find photos with the same serial number. The one that was faked used the buried ones serial number as it was listed as missing. The buried one is now sueing the fake one. Certainly the fake one is fake. Is the buried one fake, well its not very orginal.

The just the VIN plate seems a little too far to go to for a restoration.

I betcha its not the only stray VIN plate laying around since it was just screwed in place.

I only have the stick shift **** from my 71 Formula 400 Firebird and the owners manual (only 1200 made) can I build a car around that? Would I want to?

hope2

a lot/some/a few of those old drag cars were stolen cars.

trim tag is different, doesn't mean a thing legally

law enforcement has tunnel vision when it comes to vin's.

Racer-rt

I can remember when this forum was a helpful and friendly place to find help on the areas where our own knowledge is not as strong. I can't believe all of this bashing of a guy simply because he wants to resurrect a vette he saw ruined over time.
He never asked anything about the legality of the issue. Only asked about the value of a vin tag and title. All of the legal advice given is useless to that end and pointless as well. If you have an idea about the value then you can help. All of the pompous bashing is a waste of all of our time.
I think the tag and title together should be worth no more than $1000.-$1500.

wmf62

the point the nay-sayers are making is that the VIN tag and title are WORTHLESS because their reuse is illegal....
Bill