Trophy Blue

Hi guys, I heard this today, that Toyota will surpass FOMOCO within the next few weeks for second place behind General Motors for total car and truck sales. The Ford Motor Company had the second spot since the 1920's. Time to start learning to speak Japanese!

tentuna

I hope there will be an American auto designer/manufacturer in ten years, forget what place they are in.

crw41

Give it about 3 years and they will pass GM

GM is focusing their efforts on their "Hummer" commercials these days.

The mass public wants economical, well made transportation.

SIXt7

So tell me, some experts believe it's good that Ford just borrowed billions...how is this good?? Any thoughts out there??: confused:

Rimcrew

Personally, I have no problem with this - the market is dictating who grows and who does not. If Ford makes a car that is comparable to the one's Toyota makes, it will attract business. Right now, they don't - and don't even get me started on GM junk! They need to be overtaken in the worst way. GM continues to spit out crap, and they will pay for it soon enough.

Long live Toyota and Honda!!!

MikeM

You seem to imply that American cars in general are substandard or less than Toyota and Honda. Could you be a little more specific? If you can't, I believe you're ignoring a lot of facts that are common public knowledge or you just don't know any better.

I've found that people that are very smug about American $$$$$$$$$ going overseas haven't seen their work go there, YET!

knight37128

It means; they have a plan to pay it back.

The more debt the less likely to be bought-out (see Chrysler).

Rimcrew

Well, where to start. Let me start here: "Could you be a little more specific?" Sure - my 1997 Chevrolet 3500 Silverado is the last GM vehicle I will ever buy new. It was a total POS, and GM would not stand behind it. I have driven many "American" cars via rentals, looked at many at OEM shows, and at dealers showrooms and found them to be inferior to Hondas and Toyotas. Not all Japanese vehicles are better, but these two are. Now, how about if you take your own advice, and provide me with specifics?! Name one American car that has better quality than Honda.

As for jobs going "overseas" - I will assume you don't realize that many Hondas (all Accords, I believe), are manufactured in the USA. Same with Toyotas - so where are those jobs going?? This speaks to the union influence in destroying Detroit. The quality and exterior design flaws speak to management/leaderships role in destroying Detroit.

I do have personal experience with jobs going overseas. My company is off-shoring like crazy. Some of the jobs I once did are now performed in India. I have kept my job here by constantly learning more about my business, industry, and customers - in essence, making it harder for someone else to do it. It was not easy. I have had to learn a lot of new skills, and spent many sleepless nights worrying over whether I would learn fast enough, but so far I am ahead of the wave.

No one owes anyone in this country a job. Work hard, learn constantly, bring passion to your job - and you will be fine. People recognize winning behaviors, and if your company decides to move your job, many others will be standing in line to offer you a better one! If GM and Ford would demand this from all their employees, they would not be in this position. Remember, they have no one but themselves to blame for this mess. The big three had a virtual monopoly up until the mid-seventies...

Seaside63

Toyota is only picking up the customers that Ford and GM continue to abandon.

Toyota and Honda keep opening new factories in the US and GM and Ford keep CLOSING factories in the US.

Impossible to ever get those old properties back.

Unless GM and Ford wipe out their ENTIRE MANAGEMENT force they will never get back to their former glory. Fish rots from the head down.

MikeM

There are many, many things that need to change in this country to give your grankids a chance at what we had. ATTITUDES toward retaining real, meaningful work in this country is just one of them. It goes far, far deeper than cleaning out and entire management team. They are just a product that is reacting to` their environment and they'd be replaced just as quickly by people just like them.

For every success story of someone digging in and learning new skills to "hang on" there's probably 100 people that weren't in a position to take advantage of that opportunity. As the brass rings become fewer, the ones "without" will become many more.

As far as quality indicators go, I wouldn't use my own experiences. Good or bad. Too small a sample size. Refer to professional owner surveys from companies like JD Powers. 16-18 years ago, I paid a lot of attention to these owner surveys that were telling (at least Ford) that they were providing the best, near the best or at least so close to the best that there wasn't any significant difference between the best in the world and Ford. I haven't paid much attention to it in the last ten years. I've only heard that the gap is still closing but last I looked, based on owner surveys, the quality perception difference between a Ford and the rest was statistically insignificant. You may have other information.

ratpack1968

According to JD Powers IQS in 2005, Ford ranked below average for initial quality. Buick and Cadillac topped Toyota, but trailed Lexus, Jaguar and BMW. I abondoned American cars after my last Mustang. Fun car but, in general, a POS. My Lexus is 100% trouble free and supported by unsurpassed dealer service.

Rimcrew

"Refer to professional owner surveys from companies like JD Powers. 16-18 years ago, I paid a lot of attention to these owner surveys that were telling (at least Ford) that they were providing the best, near the best or at least so close to the best that there wasn't any significant difference between the best in the world and Ford. "

It depends on what the survey is measuring. If it is initial quality, then GM and Ford could be on par with Honda and Toyota. However; that is a meaningless measure to me. Anyone can build a car that is good off the showroom floor. The real test comes down the road. How long will it last with good maintenance? What will the cost of ownership be? Honda and Toyota cars are far better in this category - IMHO. I say this after buying my first used Honda in 1991. It was a 1980 wagon that had been rear-ended and the owner bought it back from the insurance co. and then sold it to me for $400. I put 100K miles on it with just two batteries, two sets of tires, and regular maintenance. That was the begining of the end for my buying American cars. I have subsequently owned three more used Hondas, and all have exceeded my expectations for reliability, and cost of ownership. Each has gone over 225k miles, and still runs strong on the original mechanicals.

Our grandkids will be just fine in this country IF we keep being innovative, and productive. Look at Microsoft. The are dominating right now, with a product that did not exist 30 years ago. It's been a while since I took economics, but there was something about specialization of labor. Countries should do what they are good at doing, and trade with other countries to get goods they do not make themselves. This makes everyone better off.

There is nothing magical about automotive jobs that will cause our country to decline if they are no longer available. I know one individual who retired in his early forties, a millionaire. He amased his small fortune pouring concrete. He worked for someone until he learned enough skills to set out on his own, He then built up his company and sold it for a bundle. He sacrificed a lot to get there, but is now enjoying the rewards.

This country will always have opportunities for great paying jobs, if we remember what got us here; hard work, and creativeness - and if the Gov't stays out of the mix!!

Tom E.

In 1982, I traded in a low mileage 1979 Chevy Malibu Wagon because of countless major problems & the runaround for a used Honda Accord. We drove the Accord for over 10 years and put well over 175K miles on it (even though it had no major issues-we traded it in because we just wanted something new). Oh, and we still got a decent trade-in amount for it.
I have not bought an American car since then...(except a used 1965 Corvette Stingray $$$$$-but that's different) .

I have bought or leased more than a dozen new & used Honda's & Toyota's and not one of those vehicles has ever left me stranded, had to be towed, or cost me an arm and a leg to repair for any reason--just basic maintenance.

So personally, I have not bought a car just to "Buy American" because I perceive a difference in quality. It is a world economy & consumers are dollar conscious, so I'm not surprised the "Big 3" are slipping. And what about the market share for the BMW's, KIA's, Hundais, Subaru's, etc.... they're everywhere!

Every person I've ever dealt with at a Toyota or Honda store was an American---The salesmen, the service writers, the mechanics, the phone operator, finance guy, parts guy, etc, etc- always Americans. (And, they all seemed to like their jobs).

So, when I am convinced that GM & Ford (I will never buy a Chrysler product, no matter what) are building a quality product at a good price and want my business back...Then we'll see....

KyleDallas

You hit that one right on the money..

I remember in the 80's when I heard that GM management was going
to push all their cars in the direction of front wheel drive... I knew the
second that I heard that that trouble layed ahead... if not corporate death.

The traditional-
Cutlass
Monte Carlo
Regal
Malibu
El Camino

All good, rear wheel drive cars that people bought in droves
in the 60's, 70's, and through the mid 80's..... were basically targeted
for extinction with that move....
Managerial incompetence on a grand scale.

Corporate intellegence struck again with the elimination of
V-8's in anything less than a full bore GT or Z28 package..... the 92 Camaro
RS and 93 Mustang LX 5.0 were the last V-8's in a plainer type of affordable trim. So long pony car. Hello corporate knumbskulls.
People don't want to pay a $10,000.00 premium to own a V-8...
which is about where we're at today when you look at an entry level
vs. a V-8 option/available car.

Let's be clear..it's not American consumers who left the Big 3... it was the Management of the Big 3 that left the American consumers.

The old pony car formula would work today if Detroit would return
to it. And stop telling themselves and others how "we are just as
good as the Japanese" and start besting them with the finished product.
Half the time you hear a Detroit exec... it's like a broken record
of a Yes man spewing out his resume'.... it get's pretty old, really.
How many cars that are made by Ford, GM, or Chrysler today are
something that you would be excited to have???? How many make
you think.... "Wow, what a cool package at a great price"?
If they did put a car together that made you think that... you
would buy it.

Im mad at the Exec's... not the brands, they've spent to many years
travelling in the wrong direction.

SolidAxle

All previous comments aside, you have to admit that the current Corvette is still the best performance/styling machine for the money.

Rimcrew

Yep, but I hear they have quality issues, as well. I don't have first-hand knowledge but have read that the Z06 tops are de-laminating and there are some drive train issues. So, even the corvette is not immune...

shft22

The way I see it, at least base on my short experience in corporate American is a basic lack of vision this is basically because long term strategy is against short term profit.
Think about it, an executive of a given corporation gets promoted and appraised if the value of the stock of that company goes up while they are in command. But most of these guys are only in the company for a short time (relative to the life of the company) so if they make the stock holders (and themselves) a bunch of money by cutting costs and development work today, they get promoted and by the time the impact of their decision becomes apparent they have moved on to bigger and better things.
When is the last time you heard of a company stock going up because they had plans for a great product in the future or because they were spending money on research to make their product better.
It is my humble opinion that corporate America in general has lost its way; the greedy executives and boar of directors are killing what little passion is left.

Seaside63

The reliability of modern automobiles is so close that there are only tiny differences between a Kia and a Lexus. As far as reliability goes I don't think anyone can make a fair and reasonable judgement between brands.

But there is no denying that decisions made by Detroit management over the past 40 years have continuously and relentlessly eroded a once mighty industry to a whimpering mess.

It's so easy to blame labor and the unions for the problems instituted by management and finance. GM and Ford's problems are due to uninteresting products and poor planning.

At Toyota they are counting the days until they overtake GM worldwide.

GM and Ford better wake up soon or they will be sitting alongside Studebaker and American Motors.

As someone once said, "They're already dead, they just don't know it yet".

AZDoug

My next new truck will be a Toyota.

That after having bought nothing but new GW products for the last 25 years.

i could probably put up with the occassional warranty issue, but when GM starts pinching pennies by selling , yes selling, rebuilt (and poorly rebuilt, needing more warranty work,and even that isn't right, yet) transfer cases and transmissions, on non-warranty problems (warranty expired, I paid), and they don't offer new assemblies At ALL., they can go screw themselves. You cannot buy a new transfer case, tranny or engine from GM, they are all recycled warranty cores.

Basically, they are recycling warranty removed assemblies and selling them after *overhaul/rebuild* to customers to get the most out of their $$.

My 2003 GM truck was/is a POS, but I will drive it for another 30,000 miles, if it makes it to 80,000 miles, and then get a Toyota.

The Toyo trucks are made in the US, so manufacturing labor stays here, but yes corporate profits go to Japan,and I believe the drivetrain assemblies are made in Japan so they can keep their eye on quality better.

It is Detriots own fault, they sold SH&t (quality) from the '50's on up until the 1980's because they figured they could make what they wanted,and people had no choice but to buy it, when they finally figured out that had better change, as they were llosing major market share to better built *** autos

Doug

Rimcrew

Well I beg to differ. My GM truck's engine was DOA at 57k miles, along with all the control arm bushings. The tranny was replaced at 20k, under warranty - as were many other misc. items. My wife's buick is crapping out at 120k miles. Everything is breaking/wearing out.

Not one of my Honda's has had to have an engine or trans replaced, or even have major work done to it, at up to 275k miles. My '03 Civic is close to 60k and has had zero problems. It gets ~40 MPG, and starts every time I get in it.

There is most definately a difference in quality among the various manufacturers!