Seaside63

Prius / Civic / Insight

Like in the movie, "Over The Hedge", when the animals see the huge Suburban and they ask the racoon how many humans can fit inside? -- The racoon answers, ONE !

Corbrastang

Nevermind

Trophy Blue

The Prius and the Insight have got to be the ugliest new cars on the planet by far!! I would hate to be in an accident with one of those go-carts!!

65coupe

I may agree with you if the market was on an equal footing for all sides.
First off, I will never buy another Japanese car as the two I've owned were sheer poor quality crap. Now with that opinion out of the way, I will never buy a Japanese car for the following reasons:

1) The Japanese have kept the value of the Yen artificially low that makes our products more expensive and their products cheap. This is a screw job on American products.

2) The labor cost structure for GM and Ford is twice Japanese mainly due to the lousy Unions that will not accept the same wages ($35.00 per hour wages and benefits) that Japanese companies pay American workers here. Instead GM and Ford are forced to pay 6 figure salaries to assembly workers ($65.00 per hour for wages and benefits). I am amazed of the great competive cars Ford and GM produce and wonder what they could do if that $30 difference per hour were to be applied to R&D or at least lower car retails.

3) The Wall Street Journal published last summer that if you don't buy a GM or Ford for any other reason then buy one to hold onto the six figure design or engineering job one of our son/daughter may get. Those jobs will be gone if GM and Ford dissapear someday.

4) Japan goes all out to protect their industries including the car industry. There market is very restricted. Why don't we return the favor? If our government won't do it we should boycott Japan on our own.

I will only buy GM from now on and would feel embarrassed to "own" a *** car. Stop the selfishness and give GM and Ford a fighting chance to come back and hopefully dump the unions. I also have never had a problem with any GM car I have owned and consider them highquality even on their small cheap cars.

I am embarrassed to say that on Long Island NY this year 55,000 foreign makes were sold with a big increase in sales as compared to 15,000 domestics that was a big drop in sales. I love Long Island but those numbers **** me off and I blame selfish LIers who seem to not give a damn if GM/Ford go away. This is not just a NY thing though. Even the Mid-West stalwarts are now beginning to go Japanese.

Wake up Americans...

jkuzzy

I'm sorry. I won't buy a GM hoping that GM wakes up. I have been hoping for years it will happen and I see no end in sight. The unions are killing everyone.

65coupe

GM is fully awake and doing a damn good job. Unions are NOT killing Japanese companies. There are no unions in japan owned plants in the US.
Unions, politicians and american buyers who are fooled into thinking Japanese companies make a better product are killing GM and Ford. We should demand equal market footing with Japan. We should contact our politicians about what unions are doing to American manufacturing.

1961TUX

65Coupe
Thank You!
Let's save our jobs.

Rimcrew

You are certainly entitled to do just that. I used to feel the same way. My first car was a '57 Belair 2dr HT. I owed about 15 GM trucks and SUV's after that. Unfortunately, the '97 PU I bought was both the most expensive to purchase, and most costly to maintain vehicle I have ever owned. It clearly had manufacturing defects that the manufacturer would not own up to. I tried to get them to do the right thing, but they were more concerned with their finances than my satisfaction. Had they offered anything in the way of help, I probably would have considered it sufficient. They did not, and I will not likely ever buy their crap again.

As for the unions, they were a good thing at one time. That time has long-since passed. They will continue to be a parasite until the host dies... What is needed is for GM or Ford to have long-range vision such that they will invest in new plants in non-union states. Alas, they are too focused on the bottom line (shrinking as it may be), to ever do something so bold. So they will stay-the-course, right into oblivion.

So it looks like you and I have cancelled each other out - for now. Your GM WILL crap out on you, if you keep it for any length of time, and when it does you will be on your own. Remember, I did not go looking for Honda to replace GM as my vehicle supplier - GM forced me to them, as it has done for millions of other Americans. Don't worry, when they are gone other high-paying jobs will still be around, just in different industries. Who knows, someone may develop a true alternate fuel vehicle and begin manufacturing it as an independent company and overtake all the others - you never know.

bb62

The issue isn't just high paying jobs. Rimcrew, the issue that you especially don't seem to grasp is the effect that the trade balance will have on the future ability for the US to compete. The trade balance represents a permanent loss in investment capital to this country with a permanent and concurrent loss in power. Consider that for each single manufacturing job lost in this nation - 8, yes EIGHT additional jobs will be lost (in equivalent purchasing power).

Consider that in WW2, the US funded and manufactured the lions share of the products required for victory for ALL the Allies (the Soviet Union Included). A British economic historian - Hillman - in 1953 calculated that prior to the war (1937) the US actually help 41.7% of the world's war making "potential" compared with Germany at 14.4%, the Soviet Union at 14.0%, the UK at 10.2%, France at 4.2%, Japan at 3.5%, and Italy hovering around 2%. By the end of the war, the US power stood at in excess of 60% of the worlds war making potential - unprecedented in human history. This is the same power that in the subsequent decades after WW2 has created the longest stretch of safety and security for the major of the worlds nations, with the lowest rate of warfare in untold hundreds of years, and the highest standard of living on a worldwide basis - and we're pissing it away on foreign cars and lots of other foreign build goods.

Face it, in the past 60 years, excluding the Soviet nuclear arsenal, we have lived in a monopolar world dominated by a generally benevolent nation. This has never before happened and will probably not happen again once the US loses its economic edge. This is part of the reasoning for the collective security that has driven US foreign policy since WW2. NATO, WTO, WHO, UN, and the Marshall Plan have all been efforts to generate collective security so that the balance of power politics that destroyed the first half of the 20th century aren't repeated. The problem is that there are at least three cultures not fully bought into the ideal of this collective security - India, China, and the amorphous mass of Muslims that are dramatically increasing their population. Each of these cultures represents policy challenges in preventing them from looking for their "day in the sun" much like Germany 100 years ago when their economy was peaking relative the the rest of the world. But the job can't be done if the US fritters away its ability to remain the dominant world economy.

The trade off is yours ultimately. The foreign car purchased for your sense of "value" today will lead to the loss of economic security in the next generation and a loss of physical security in the generation after that. Is that the world you want for your grandchildren?

jkuzzy

This is definately good reading. I like a large amount of points people are making....
What I see is the high wire act of trying to deliver a good product that the public wants for a fair price. GM (never been a Ford or Mopar guy) has an unbelieveable ignorance about them that we will buy what they build. IMHO, that ignorance is why the market is erroding faster than they realize. I am sure things are better than in the past, but they have gone thru decades of junk. That junk is the reason for the future looking so bleak for our grandchildren.
In this day and age, it is so nice to see high hp coming out of the manufacturers. Not that many years ago, 300hp was a very nice number out of a V8. Now you can get that out of a V6 and the gas mileage is better. That is nice progress.
Then the manufacturers will couple that progress with a curb weight that is 3800 pounds. I know there are safety things, (yada, yada, yada) but there is no way a Mustang should approach 2 tons. I guess that is for another discussion.....

Rimcrew

1) Our growing balance-of-trade deficit with China, and our growing dependence on foreign oil, are very worrisome; however, GM's return to health, or demise, will have little impact on our balance of trade - selling more Boeing A/C to China will. You say that a trade deficit creates a permanent loss of investment power - well I must disagree. International companies that have tons of cash on hand want to invest that cash so they can make more. Where is the best place in the world to invest - the US! Our growth and stability make us a very attractive place to invest one's capitol. So I don't buy your argument.

2) You throw out a lot of statistics on WWII, and post-WWII manufacturing and I submit that they no longer apply as they once did. Unless we get into a WWII type conflict, where we need to crank out tens of thousands of tanks, jeeps, etc., we will be ok in any future conflict. What concerns me far more is the loss of our lead and capabilities in the aerospace arena. I work for a very large ($30B+ annual revenue) aerospace corporation, and it is sending jobs to India and Mexico as fast as it can, not only manufacturing jobs, but also engineering jobs. The outcomes of wars today are greatly dependent on airpower. If we can't manufacture A/C or design new ones because our engineers are overseas and will not help us in time of war, where does that leave us?? In a much worse position than not being able to export a few junk cars, IMHO.

3) I share your concern with the danger we face in the world today, and I am fairly confident that danger will increase (multiply) in the coming years if we do not take out the root cause of radical Islamic hatred. Alas, I fear that this country no longer has the will to pursue a long-term effort to eradicate that threat. Liberalism has all but killed our spirit of self-sacrifice for the greater good. I doubt that a draft can ever again be instituted in this country - barring a devastating attach on US soil. Thus our ability to fight a large and determined foe is very limited.

Now, I am an optimist and have great faith in this country so I think that when the large attack comes, we will wake up and do what needs to be done to take out our enemies - permanently. I also am a realist, and think it will take that large attack to wake us up to the fact that not everyone in the world is content with a large house, two SUV's, and two nice hobby cars. The best thing we could do for our country is to eliminate Iran and Syria as sponsors, and sources of funding, for radical Islam.

As for my Grandchildren, if we stick with a market-based economy, they will be just fine. This is not a zero-sum game. As one industry fades, another will step up to take it's place. As long as we work hard, and are creative, we will continue to generate great wealth as a country.

Since this thread is devolving into a P&R type discussion, I will post no further items here. Lest you think I am not up to a debate of the issues, I will be available via PM or e-mail, should you feel the need to educate me...

My parting comment is this: Last night I was at Costco and they had a Ford Fusion parked in front of the store to promote their auto-purchasing program. I stopped to look as it was a very attractive auto, for a family car. It had some nice features and was priced in line with a Honda Accord. I thought about giving it a try to see if things have really changed, but then I thought of all the problems it might have down the road, and how the resale value would be terrible, and I quickly dismissed the idea in favor of buying an Accord when I need my next car. Sorry folks, but I will not be the guinea pig for proving that Ford has turned the corner. My experiences with Honda's have been far too good to go back to a domestic. They drove me away, and they will have to try very hard to lure me back! It's their fault, not mine.

ratpack1968

Although controversial, I choose to look at this differently. The U.S., and much of the western world, are evolving from industrial economies to knowledge-based economies. Companies perform three primary functions - they design, manufacture or distribute a product, yes? Manufacturing is capital and labor intensive and thus does not generate high returns - particularly in the U.S. where unions wield the power to demand high (relative to global) wages. So, companies are redirecting their attention to design and distribution and outsourcing the manufacturing to countries where labor is abundant and cheap. This results in higher profits, lower prices and serves to contain price inflation. I think that we will find that plenty of manufacturing will remain in the U.S., however it will be limited to products that are high-value added - jet engines, MRI machines, and other such specialized high-knowledge embedded products. The labor force will not be lost, they will simply have to evolve. With respect to the trade deficit, it is measured on sales, not profits. If it were somehow measured with consideration to profits you would probably see a surplus. A large portion of our trade deficit with China is accounted for by U.S. multinational firms that have ownership of assets in China. So we're not being flooded with foreign goods in the traditional sense. In essence, you have U.S. companies producing a good in China that is exported back to the U.S., counted in our trade deficit, but not factually part of China's production. It could be argued that the trade deficit is sustainable to the extent that the return on capital exceeds the cost of capital. The deficit is simply leverage. I refuse to believe that losses in the manufacturing sector spell the end of life as we know it. Instead, I believe that our labor force will evolve and prosper accordingly. The U.S. is the epicenter of entrepreneurship, technical innovation and determination and, although we are faced with plenty of global competitition, it is doubtful that we will lose our place in the world economy.

Seaside63

All the plutocratic, corporatic "free trade" theories in the world won't solve the problem that we in the US no longer can defend ourselves in a major war.

Hell, we can't even win a little tiny war in a country with no army.

I heard a number of years ago that the United States could not recreate the Space Shuttle today since there aren't enough US citizen engineers left.

Our kids are not learning engineering or sciences. We are importing engineers from countries that may not be "friendly" in a major war. We are offshoring so many jobs that not only are we diminishing our own capabilities, we are training our competition to wipe us out.

We are no longer self sufficient.

The only way we can pay off the trade imbalance is with hard currency and that is going to be land. China doesn't have to beat us in a war, they'll simply BUY us.

The Corporatists have their thumb on public perception since they own the media and through advertising revenues they control the message that gets out.

All the things we believe about ourselves are manufactured messages to keep us in line.

The corporations have no loyalty to US. Yet we roll over and repeat their platitudes at every opportunity.

GM management is in on the scam. In order to return to their former glory they would have to FIRE THEMSELVES and someone would have to hire an entire new management team with untraditional methods. That ain't never gonna happen.

Sad for us, sad for our future and sad for freedom.

65coupe

If I understand your post correctly...you've owned 16 new GM vehicles since 1957 that you were satified with and then you finally buy '97 ten years ago that gave you some problems and you are jumping ship. Wow...are you that demanding on all aspects of your life that you wouldn't give a company that gave you a great product for 40 years another chance?

I find most people I know that do not know one end of a car from the other are buying japanese are just caught up with buying those cars but in reality (per JD Powers) are no better that ours.

I still own my first car (66 chevelle) and have nothing but great success in all the GM cars I've owned all the way up to a 2005 car we have a year now. I wouldn't put my wife and kids in cars that I thought wouldn't get them to where they are going.

The worst cars I owned were two japanese cars (Toyota with three bads 5 speeds among other complaints and a Mazda that had everything wrong with it except the motor). I have complete confidence in GM products. The shame for you is that you have missed out on the great improvements on GM products in the pass 10 years while you became a Honda owner depite GM being screwed by oppresive unions, bulls**t value on the Japanese Yen and restictive Japanese market for our products. As an American, doesn't the irk you? Don't you give a damn that GM is being SCREWED by these things that is out of their control especially by Japan. Are you that selfish.
I am not connected to GM at all but out of fairness I feel for them. Despite those unfair market parameters, GM is doing a hell of a job.

A major factor in our global world in the HUGE transfer of wealth going on right under our noses from the USA to other countries like China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc... We are a major debtor nation mostly due to oil and autos. Our standard of living is in a slow slide and will continue to until the SOL is equal to the countries listed above. Your "grandchildren" probably won't live as well as you. Everyone is currently pacified as they can buy all the low price "stuff" they want at "Walmarts". This is delaying the inevidable. China and all Eastern Hemisphere countries' standard of living is improving but the downside is the growing cost of labor that comes with improving SOL is being passed on to the low priced products we buy. Bottom line is our incomes will shrink and the "Walmart" and other big box store prices on products are rising. Throw on top of that the cost of debt.

We are buying all the Eastern Hemisphere depreciating value crap like cars, steal, electronics, clothing, etc...( all things that will be in our landfills shortly) and those countries take those revenues and buy our real estate, T-Bills, etc... God forbid that those countries holding our notes decide to cash them in. The US will be foreign owned and these same countries are having a say in our government as a result.

Another aspect is as we go off shore with more and more of our manufacturing, we are creating a HUGE security risk. I'll give you one example: We are running out of "smart bombs" due to the fact that one small component we need manufactured off shore will not be delivered to us as that country opposes our involvement in the Iraq War. This is indicative of a major challenge when all our manufacturing is gone and our dependence on manufacturing things we will depend on to survive will be in the hands of a future enemy. Remember that GM and Ford (the companies you don't give a damn about) built tons of weaponry for our defense.


WAKE UP....

kenmo

Finally a post that has some merit to it...

Rimcrew

OK, I'm back in. That didn't take long...

With things I purchase I absolutely am this way. Why would I subject myself to a screwing twice, just to give some company a second chance? I may again purchase a GM, but they will have to be much better than they are now for me to do so. I drove a new Silverado in November. It reminded me of my POS '97 - so I don't see the improvement yet.

I am very thankful; however, that my wife does not apply this standard to me. I would be out in the cold if she did!!

I will assume that you are directing that comment at me, as I can assure you I know one end of a car from the other...

I'm happy for you. That wasn't my experience!

Well, let's see; 1997 was nine years ago, give or take a model year, so I guess I haven't seen the improvement you speak of. BTW, I have friends with 1999 Chevy's that had the same engine problem I had, so I guess the quality still sucked then. As for the unions, time to move to right-to-work states. The cost of doing so will be recovered several times over in the long run. Oh, I forgot, American corporations now manage to Wall Street, not the market place. That is what is killing our corporations, not worldwide competition. I have first-hand experience of this and assure you I know about that of which I speak!!

Let me tell you something, my friend, the most selfish thing I could do is to promote an inefficient, non-competitive business - like GM. When you do that you end of with....... FRANCE, and I will not let that happen to this great country of mine!!!

Make a great car, and it will get exported - regardless of trade barriers. Move to non-union states and you will have lower costs.

With all due respect, . The greatest threat to our way of life, by far, is the out-of-control spending by all levels of government!!! By FREAKING far!!! The government, at all levels, steals about 55% of my pay. Imagine what I could do for my kids if I had that money in my hands - not to mention the others I could help out. We need to shrink our government at all levels, or we will become like Europe, content but irrelevant on the world stage. If you want a rallying cry, this is it. The rewards of shrinking government spending with far outweigh any benefit of GM prospering.

As for bringing the rest of the world up to our standard - I say fantastic! Think of the market it will generate for our products with all those well paid consumers in other countries. Not to mention the reduction in wars and other less intense conflicts. We will battle each other in the marketplace, not on the battle field, and we will all benefit from the competition.

So they buy all our real estate, they can't take it with them, and if push comes to shove, we can very easily have it back. Have you been following recent events in South America? It's very easy, albeit, not too smart economically, to nationalize any assets that remain in the country. As for the crap we are buying, I agree with you there. I sure wish I could find products that were not made in China, but it is very hard to do. I do look for US made products, and buy them when they are a good value; i.e., the cost of ownership is lower via initial purchase price, or better overall quality and longer life (same logic I use to buy a car).

In any major conflict, if we can buy a few months to ramp up, we will be just fine. Look at what we were able to do in WWII. We still have that capability today; we just haven't had the need to use it since our military kicks butt very quickly. It's then the politicians and liberals who ****** defeat from the jaws of victory (forgive the cliché).

I am very awake, and I fully believe that this country will be just fine. We have the greatest form of government, and the greatest people, on earth. Nothing can stop us but ourselves!

Stingray_RSSS

Well contrary to most of the post here, I have only owned American cars, Chevy, Pontiac, Dodge. My moms toyota camry was ok, it was pretty reliable but felt like a tin box and looked even worse, traded it in and bought her a new Malibu LTZ, exceptional looks, performance, gas mileage, it feels very sturdy, the interior feels solid, she even gets comments on how nice looking it is, something she never got in a toyota, plus neither my wife nor I liked even driving it. Our 99 Grand Prix GTP supercharged has over 120000 miles, with no problems, extremely reliable, looks great, fast and I average over 26 MPG in city and highway. We have had a camaro IROC for over 10 years, an 88 cavalier Z24, both very reliable. I could go on and on but I think it might be either luck of the draw, but I am a true believer if you take care of it, it will last, I also do all of my own work.

1961TUX

I wonder why someone that loves foreign cars so much and would love GM to go under, would even have a Corvette??????

65coupe

Well I'm not going to challenge your replies line by line but I could. I'll sum it up that you have either misread parts of my post or you do not have a sufficient answer and chose to reply with an answer unrelated to my quote (apples to oranges scenario). Re0read my last post and your replies.

For example:
1)I have brought up to you twice that Japan is screwing us through unfair practices such as artificially low Yen that makes our products more expensive in Japan, restricted markets that prevents our products from full access to their consumers. You haven't directly answered this challenge. Doesn't those practices offend you as an American?

2) When a HUGE transfer of wealth from the USA to Eastern Hemishere countries means that our standard of living is in a slow slide while those countries standard of living is going up. It doesn't mean ours will remain constant. I wish those countries well but we should be supporting American first. It may not happen in your lifetime (hopefully not) but third world nation status can be our future. You gave a totally unrelated reply.

3) GM and Ford are tied to the UAW no matter what state they decide to build cars. There are no non-union states in regards to the GM and the UAW.

4) Your reply to foreign interests buying up our T-Bills and Real Estate was silly.

5) You don't ramp up manufacturing of defense hardware in a few months especially once we are no longer a manufacturing country. By the way the country that is keeping us from completeing our manufacture of Smart Bombs is Switzerland. One of our allies.

Good luck.

kenmo

I'm thinking the same thing....He should trade it in and buy a 1970's Datsun 240Z/260Z...

I've owned back to back Toyotas. Hands down the worse cars I've ever owned. Rusted badly and parts are way too expensive. I could buy 3 alternators for my 1960 Corvette for what I paid for an alternator for my Celica.