Can you buy a Engine Stamping Kit?
10-05-2005, 09:38 AM
#41
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
16 Posts
IMO a resto is a resto. Unless the car is completely original (original plugs, points, paint, rugs, and tires) - parts are being restored, and substituted.
IMO only the matching number ***** think the engine block is different than all the other parts on the car. (What? Your original block doesn't have original rod bearings? For shame!)
PS Broach marks are not a problem for a restorer.
PPS Chris Ritchie:"Nobody's answered the original question," I have never seen a for sale ad for the tools. I have seen for rent in Hemmings, and the last NCRS Driveline had an ad from Mr Matching Numbers to do it for you.
IMO only the matching number ***** think the engine block is different than all the other parts on the car. (What? Your original block doesn't have original rod bearings? For shame!)
PS Broach marks are not a problem for a restorer.
PPS Chris Ritchie:"Nobody's answered the original question," I have never seen a for sale ad for the tools. I have seen for rent in Hemmings, and the last NCRS Driveline had an ad from Mr Matching Numbers to do it for you.
Last edited by magicv8; 10-05-2005 at 09:58 AM.
10-05-2005, 10:02 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by magicv8
IMO only the matching number ***** think the engine block is different than all the other parts on the car. (What? Your original block doesn't have original rod bearings? For shame!)
10-05-2005, 10:06 AM
#43
No - My orginal question was where can you get one
My question was where can you get one?
Why would anybody ever re-stamp... Its bragging rights...
What is the 1st thing people look at when you open the hood,
for some reason its the stamp pad. So, instead of going through
all the hassle of telling people that the block was decked, why not just restamp it?
Why does a woman get a Boob-job? Because it makes them feel happy... Why would anyone restamp a engine after it was decked, Because it makes you feel happy. It looks correct!
Again, just so I know for the future, for the people who buy replacement part (with numbers), (what I consider hypocrites) what are the parts that ok to replace without getting dogged by others and why do you do it?
Secondly- Does anyone know where you can get a replacement VIN tag? - I added that just to add fuel to the fire...
Why would anybody ever re-stamp... Its bragging rights...
What is the 1st thing people look at when you open the hood,
for some reason its the stamp pad. So, instead of going through
all the hassle of telling people that the block was decked, why not just restamp it?
Why does a woman get a Boob-job? Because it makes them feel happy... Why would anyone restamp a engine after it was decked, Because it makes you feel happy. It looks correct!
Again, just so I know for the future, for the people who buy replacement part (with numbers), (what I consider hypocrites) what are the parts that ok to replace without getting dogged by others and why do you do it?
Secondly- Does anyone know where you can get a replacement VIN tag? - I added that just to add fuel to the fire...
10-05-2005, 10:36 AM
#44
Racer
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: San Mateo, CA.U.S.A california
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the problem ls after you sell the car someday, Then the your buyer sells the car now the history gets lost and the next guy thinks he has an orginial matching numbers car which he paid a preimum of 10 to 15k for. Yours maybe the real deal but how many are not and who will know what is real and what is not someday. I am a novice and would be pretty pissed if I bought a car which I thought was what appeared to be matching and had someone tell me that it was restamped even if it was the orginial motor that was worked on then restamped. Why not leave it blank. Only a handfull of people will look at the motor to see the numbers.
10-05-2005, 10:37 AM
#45
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
16 Posts
ctjackster - Just say: it's been restored - get your experts to look it over.
"Caveat emptor" still applies - no matter what claims or disclaimers are issued. It's a used car. All c1s and c2s are used cars. Does anyone trust used car sales people?
I'm happy that the demand for resto parts is strong and repop parts are more available than ever.
"Caveat emptor" still applies - no matter what claims or disclaimers are issued. It's a used car. All c1s and c2s are used cars. Does anyone trust used car sales people?
I'm happy that the demand for resto parts is strong and repop parts are more available than ever.
10-05-2005, 12:11 PM
#46
Might want to add me to your list too since my block was decked by HESCO and is being restamped by classic engine co. Of course, i dont ever plan to sell and i am not trying to fake a car.
10-05-2005, 12:35 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
yes Corbrastang I well recall your plight. You are in the 1% class, those who have a restamped but original block. Or restamped original block. Or restored original block?
But then the unscrupulous use that claim now too - I just helped a nearby 65 owner who had bought the car from CnV, it had a fairly obvious restamp (rotary grind marks to boot), but CnV claimed it had the original engine that had been decked during a rebuild and then restamped by the owner simply as it was before. Late engine casting date proved that story bogus, and a careful look at the digiatl pics of the stamp pad also showed the other VIN ghosting. Problem was this was learned two months after purchase. Of course, buyer could have inquired about the casting date as a cross check in advance of the purchase, and this would have been shown to be a NOM restamp.
PS CnV did not step up on that after having been invited to do the right thing, as far as I know.
But then the unscrupulous use that claim now too - I just helped a nearby 65 owner who had bought the car from CnV, it had a fairly obvious restamp (rotary grind marks to boot), but CnV claimed it had the original engine that had been decked during a rebuild and then restamped by the owner simply as it was before. Late engine casting date proved that story bogus, and a careful look at the digiatl pics of the stamp pad also showed the other VIN ghosting. Problem was this was learned two months after purchase. Of course, buyer could have inquired about the casting date as a cross check in advance of the purchase, and this would have been shown to be a NOM restamp.
PS CnV did not step up on that after having been invited to do the right thing, as far as I know.
10-05-2005, 12:46 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
16 Posts
IMO another case of more money than brains. People buy home computers they will never use, or computers with expensive options they will never use for the same reason.
What, ask an expert to help me make a judicious purchase decision? I've been buying underwear and groceries all my life, I must know how to buy an old car that I expect to be judged as a classic original.
PS: CnV (??) understands "caveat emptor".
What, ask an expert to help me make a judicious purchase decision? I've been buying underwear and groceries all my life, I must know how to buy an old car that I expect to be judged as a classic original.
PS: CnV (??) understands "caveat emptor".
10-05-2005, 12:59 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Seaside63
Stamp 'em All and let GOD Sort 'em out !
It just shows how ridiculous the whole hobby has become. When we were all teenagers, 99% of us were lucky to even have a car at all or a job.
Now we're all so rich and fat we'll spend tens of thousands of dollars because a stamp on an engine block looks original.
It just shows how ridiculous the whole hobby has become. When we were all teenagers, 99% of us were lucky to even have a car at all or a job.
Now we're all so rich and fat we'll spend tens of thousands of dollars because a stamp on an engine block looks original.
If you go to sell and someone is wanting an "original engine" with "numbers matching", there are and will be plenty of people who can tell the difference in original and replacement. And if by some chance they can't tell the difference, what does it matter between an original and non-original??
10-05-2005, 12:59 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
CnV is a mini Pro-Team type operation in AZ: http://www.cnv-corvettes.com/
my 65 went through there at one point
, they installed the VA and the PS (VA since removed)
my 65 went through there at one point
, they installed the VA and the PS (VA since removed)
10-05-2005, 01:09 PM
#51
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Norwalk ohio
Posts: 8,927
Received 640 Likes
on
358 Posts
2019 Corvette of the Year Winner
St. Jude Donor '15
Originally Posted by Ol Blue
Many many years ago when Bloomington Gold was in Bloomington IL I heard/saw a beautifully restored 69 pull in the motel parking lot. It had the L 88 hood and sounded like an L-88 too.
When he lifted the hood the engine looked like an L-88. I noticed some guys peering down into the engine compartment looking at the pad. They came away shaking their heads and laughing.
The engine pad had F*** Y** stamped on it. I guess the owner was tired of people asking/telling him that it wasn't the original engine.
Ol Blue
When he lifted the hood the engine looked like an L-88. I noticed some guys peering down into the engine compartment looking at the pad. They came away shaking their heads and laughing.
The engine pad had F*** Y** stamped on it. I guess the owner was tired of people asking/telling him that it wasn't the original engine.
Ol Blue
10-05-2005, 02:39 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
What an attitude!
Some of you guys crack me up!
But maybe you thought it was okay to put counterfeit money in the Salvation Army kettle because "They didn't have an expert check it before they accepted". "Society / the economy / the NCRS / anybody but me is responsible." "I was told.." What a bunch of wimpy excuses for cheating someone.
Caveat emptor, my ***. Do unto others... unless you were raised by P.T. Barnum and don't know any better.
But maybe you thought it was okay to put counterfeit money in the Salvation Army kettle because "They didn't have an expert check it before they accepted". "Society / the economy / the NCRS / anybody but me is responsible." "I was told.." What a bunch of wimpy excuses for cheating someone.
Caveat emptor, my ***. Do unto others... unless you were raised by P.T. Barnum and don't know any better.
10-05-2005, 02:51 PM
#53
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2002
Location: Mission Viejo California
Posts: 2,257
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Ron Miller
It's your car, and you've been straightforward on a nationally viewed forum about your desire to restamp the car to make it look more original, doesn't appear to me you have any intentions of trying to decieve anyone. So, my opinion (worth about as much as you paid for it, or anyone else's here, for that matter) is if it makes you feel better, and you like the way it looks, stamp the sucker!! Same goes for replacing the alternator, starter, other numbered assemblies with matching or non-matching parts. Whatever floats your boat, it belongs to you.
If you go to sell and someone is wanting an "original engine" with "numbers matching", there are and will be plenty of people who can tell the difference in original and replacement. And if by some chance they can't tell the difference, what does it matter between an original and non-original??
If you go to sell and someone is wanting an "original engine" with "numbers matching", there are and will be plenty of people who can tell the difference in original and replacement. And if by some chance they can't tell the difference, what does it matter between an original and non-original??
The only thing I have ever stated is my belief that treating that stamp pad like some sort of holy grail is ridiculous to me.
I believe that it is ridiculous for people to consider a stamp pad above all the other 100,000 components and features about the car.
I also believe that if it is "ok" to replace every other part from belts, hoses, U-joints, interiors, paint and body.... da da da da da.... Then why all the consternation over a stamp pad?
My first post to this thread was that my wish would be that every Corvette stamp pad would magically be ground away in the middle of the night as an end to this madness.
10-05-2005, 02:53 PM
#54
Well said Jerry. I think the morality of the issue actually falls down the line of investor vs. Corvette lovers. While this is certainly a generality, I feel that the same people who where responsible for driving up the prices in the 80's, are the ones who created this price insanity.
However, as Jerry points out.... can't anybody accept responsibility for their actions anymore ?
However, as Jerry points out.... can't anybody accept responsibility for their actions anymore ?
10-05-2005, 03:21 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Seaside63
You assume too much. I have never stated any desire to restamp my own engine. Fortunately I do have the original block with my car, with its original deck surface and all the numbers in their glory.
The only thing I have ever stated is my belief that treating that stamp pad like some sort of holy grail is ridiculous to me.
I believe that it is ridiculous for people to consider a stamp pad above all the other 100,000 components and features about the car.
I also believe that if it is "ok" to replace every other part from belts, hoses, U-joints, interiors, paint and body.... da da da da da.... Then why all the consternation over a stamp pad?
My first post to this thread was that my wish would be that every Corvette stamp pad would magically be ground away in the middle of the night as an end to this madness.
The only thing I have ever stated is my belief that treating that stamp pad like some sort of holy grail is ridiculous to me.
I believe that it is ridiculous for people to consider a stamp pad above all the other 100,000 components and features about the car.
I also believe that if it is "ok" to replace every other part from belts, hoses, U-joints, interiors, paint and body.... da da da da da.... Then why all the consternation over a stamp pad?
My first post to this thread was that my wish would be that every Corvette stamp pad would magically be ground away in the middle of the night as an end to this madness.
I believe you misunderstood my post. I never assumed that you wanted to restamp your car, only that 1964*Air*Coupe wanted to restamp his. What I did mean to imply is that if he wishes to restamp his, it's his car and his decision as far as I'm concerned.
The reality is, however, that the stamp pad is treated as you say a "holy grail". But, if a 'vette owner wishes to restamp the block, cut out the fenderwells, add three taillights, or chop the top, as far as I'm concerned it's his car and he can do with it as he pleases.
One of my cars is an original engine car, one has a replacement block (that's not original, as it's a 350 cube), but as someone said previously also, it really doesn't matter to me as I don't plan on selling either car.
Last edited by Ron Miller; 10-05-2005 at 03:27 PM.
10-05-2005, 03:36 PM
#56
Drifting
Member Since: Mar 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chris ritchie
Nobody's answered the original question, so I'll ask it again.
Where can I buy an engine stamping kit? .......
Say, where can I buy a casting date kit? Sure save me a lot of trouble looking for a correctly dated block.
Where can I buy an engine stamping kit? .......
Say, where can I buy a casting date kit? Sure save me a lot of trouble looking for a correctly dated block.
Ever wonder about that '65 396 block that had the wrong webbing but the correct casting number posted a while back? Now watch people scramble.
IMO, if you are willing to pay big dollars for an original car, just like buying a house, get an expert to inspect it. If it's a good enough copy to fool the experts, then fine, what's the problem? It'll fool the buddy you're trying to impress. And just like buying a house, if you are afraid that in the future someone will determine that the "original" block is in fact not original, put appropriate verbage in the contract for damages. If the seller is convinced that the car is original, there should be no problem, right?
We are dealing with an issue that goes beyond normal car buying, it is investing, and as such, if you are concerned with your investment, protect it.
10-05-2005, 04:07 PM
#57
Banned Scam/Spammer
Member Since: May 2003
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really don't get the whole numbers matching thing. I think anyone paying for a "matching numbers" block is completely insane or has an unlimited amount of cash. All things being equal, please tell me how those little numbers give you any amount of joy.
I would never spend $0.01 more for a "numbers matching" car (again all else being equal) because there really isn't any value to it. Even if the best expert in the world can confirm it to be real , that block is no better than any other block in the same condition.
When I decide to spend X dollors on a car, why would I want a "POS car with correct numbers" over a great condintion car with a NOM (I mean non-numbers matching block)?
I would never spend $0.01 more for a "numbers matching" car (again all else being equal) because there really isn't any value to it. Even if the best expert in the world can confirm it to be real , that block is no better than any other block in the same condition.
When I decide to spend X dollors on a car, why would I want a "POS car with correct numbers" over a great condintion car with a NOM (I mean non-numbers matching block)?
10-05-2005, 04:32 PM
#58
The arguments presented in this thread are the sole reason why my next Corvette will either be a conversion or a straight up 100 percent documented original. I have all the original documentation(protecto plate, etc) to my 65 that was decked plus before and after pictures, letter from the company that decked it, etc etc However, if i ever was in a situation to sell it i dont believe that any of this would help me. People will know and I am just too damn honest to not tell.
I agree that there are too many $hitheads out there today and its unfortunate that you cant trust anybody anymore. Just look at ebay. How many corvette scams have you seen on it lately. True 427/435hp Corvette, maybe, sortof, at one time.
I agree that there are too many $hitheads out there today and its unfortunate that you cant trust anybody anymore. Just look at ebay. How many corvette scams have you seen on it lately. True 427/435hp Corvette, maybe, sortof, at one time.
10-05-2005, 04:55 PM
#59
I wonder why NCRS has not set forth a protocol for restamping a block?
There should be some type of procedure, documentation, credentialed person, for this operation.
An example, there are numerous corvette clubs and NCRS chapters around the country with note worthy and honest representatives that could (for a price) offer a re-documenting service.
This person could verify the block in its pre-decked condition, photograph and document the block, and perhaps, have a special stamping tool, to embroach a special mark on the block below the stamp pad to authenticate the block and re-stamp approval and verification. This could then be listed in an NCRS archive for future reference.
Of course, this would lead to fraud of some sorts.
Mark
There should be some type of procedure, documentation, credentialed person, for this operation.
An example, there are numerous corvette clubs and NCRS chapters around the country with note worthy and honest representatives that could (for a price) offer a re-documenting service.
This person could verify the block in its pre-decked condition, photograph and document the block, and perhaps, have a special stamping tool, to embroach a special mark on the block below the stamp pad to authenticate the block and re-stamp approval and verification. This could then be listed in an NCRS archive for future reference.
Of course, this would lead to fraud of some sorts.
Mark
10-05-2005, 05:05 PM
#60
Rarely one to get embroiled in such endless debates (I tend to avoid abortion and gun legislation topics too), I'll chime in...
I see both points of view;
In one camp you have dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts who feel a self-imposed moral and ethical obligation to purge misrepresented cars commanding artificially high prices from our hobby. These folks tend to frown on restamped blocks/tranny's/rearends because they believe they degrade the pedigree of the car and thus the hobby as a whole. These folks will argue that it's not a matter of if, but when that same car will re-enter the market touted as a bonified thoroughbred with "original" parts. Therefore we (as dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts) owe it to the hobby to attempt to stop any practice that could aid and abet such potentially fraudulent behavior.
In the other camp you have dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts (and yes, some profiteers) who believe in the freedom to modify/restofy/restore their car to any degree of their choosing..regardless of any organized club's judging standards. It's their car to do as they wish with and if they want to restore the car to it's exact appearance as it rolled off the showroom (including radio tags, chassis paint dabs and correctly styled stamp fonts / broach marks), then that's their business. As a result, it could even be argued quite successfully that such restorations appear even closer to original GM spec. than NCRS own guidelines. These folks calmly suggest that when critics fork over $40k+ for their own car, they themselves may enjoy the freedom to apply just the correct amount of overspray to their manifolds ...or simply stamp "F*** Y** !" on their block if that is their pleasure.
Previous owner’s actions cannot be held accountable for another’s immoral intent. If someone's going to misrepresent a car for profit, they'll find a way to accomplish this with or without a prior owners help. A stamper can't be held liable for a future owners wrongful actions, any more than McDonalds hot coffee can be held responsible for bad driving, or K-Mart for Columbine etc.
If you're a buyer;
Magic's right. In the end, after all the Carlisle dust has settled and the tears of joy/sadness have dried, this is nothing more than a used car market and "buyer beware". The owner banished the car into the vast kingdom of used cars (and all it's ugliness) the minute he taped the "For Sale" sign on the windshield, and potential buyers simply cannot rely on the sellers moral fiber to sustain the cars integrity - doesn't matter whether it's a Corvette, a Ford pickup or a Class C motor home. If you're the type of buyer / investor placing a 30% premium on a car based solely on the presumption that the car contains it's original engine, then you'd better possess, or hire (or risk) 30% more money's worth of knowledge and experience to discern the difference. I wouldn't rely solely on any hired opinions from club members (judges or otherwise) either. One visit to the NCRS board will show just how many different opinions you'll get when questioning a pad's originality, and potential buyers paying them fees for car inspections is only asking for trouble and heartache. It's understood that time is always critical in buy/no buy decisions, especially in today’s active collector car market where 10 other buyers/bidders are beside you contemplating the same emotionally entangled purchase. Even so, be willing to walk away and leave others to learn the 30% lesson. Bottom line - for the average guy, forget numbers, focus on overall car condition - let the car speak for & sell itself. I'd be more concerned with frame rot, fiberglass, paint condition, overall mechanical condition than block numbers. Leave the higher dollar cars and their "original" engines to the dealers and investors who can stomach a 30% investment loss. If those cars pass muster with the broach scope - toting experts, then they've concluded amongst themselves that either; a) the block is original, or b) the restamp actually IS good enough to command +30% ...and they're ok with it either way.
If you’re a seller;
Simply present the car for what it is, to the best of your knowledge. Unless you bought the car new off the showroom and it's never left your possession, do NOT speak/write/imply as to it's "originality" while advertising/showing. As discussed, "matching numbers" and "original" have completely different implications in a courtroom while looking down the barrel of a civil lawsuit. If you are in fact misrepresenting your car for sale, be warned; most state DMV's can trace titles at least 10 years back (some across all 50 states) and there's plenty of amateur investigative services more than willing to track down a list of names/numbers for less than $100, even without employing the help of professionals. Don't be so naive as to think the buyer's not going to find at least one of the many previous owners who's able to testify (if necessary) as to the car's condition/configuration prior to sale. If you thought $10K profit and 10 years of biting your nails was worth the risk, wait til you see what a civil judgment costs you. If you're an owner who's since discovered your pride & joy has skeletons in it's glovebox (gasp!), take heart that your not alone ..either chalk it up to experience or proceed to litigate. Whether you choose to reveal your discovery/secret to the next buyer or not depends upon your own character and integrity for which nobody else can speak of.
I see both points of view;
In one camp you have dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts who feel a self-imposed moral and ethical obligation to purge misrepresented cars commanding artificially high prices from our hobby. These folks tend to frown on restamped blocks/tranny's/rearends because they believe they degrade the pedigree of the car and thus the hobby as a whole. These folks will argue that it's not a matter of if, but when that same car will re-enter the market touted as a bonified thoroughbred with "original" parts. Therefore we (as dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts) owe it to the hobby to attempt to stop any practice that could aid and abet such potentially fraudulent behavior.
In the other camp you have dedicated, loyal & long-time committed Corvette enthusiasts (and yes, some profiteers) who believe in the freedom to modify/restofy/restore their car to any degree of their choosing..regardless of any organized club's judging standards. It's their car to do as they wish with and if they want to restore the car to it's exact appearance as it rolled off the showroom (including radio tags, chassis paint dabs and correctly styled stamp fonts / broach marks), then that's their business. As a result, it could even be argued quite successfully that such restorations appear even closer to original GM spec. than NCRS own guidelines. These folks calmly suggest that when critics fork over $40k+ for their own car, they themselves may enjoy the freedom to apply just the correct amount of overspray to their manifolds ...or simply stamp "F*** Y** !" on their block if that is their pleasure.
Previous owner’s actions cannot be held accountable for another’s immoral intent. If someone's going to misrepresent a car for profit, they'll find a way to accomplish this with or without a prior owners help. A stamper can't be held liable for a future owners wrongful actions, any more than McDonalds hot coffee can be held responsible for bad driving, or K-Mart for Columbine etc.
If you're a buyer;
Magic's right. In the end, after all the Carlisle dust has settled and the tears of joy/sadness have dried, this is nothing more than a used car market and "buyer beware". The owner banished the car into the vast kingdom of used cars (and all it's ugliness) the minute he taped the "For Sale" sign on the windshield, and potential buyers simply cannot rely on the sellers moral fiber to sustain the cars integrity - doesn't matter whether it's a Corvette, a Ford pickup or a Class C motor home. If you're the type of buyer / investor placing a 30% premium on a car based solely on the presumption that the car contains it's original engine, then you'd better possess, or hire (or risk) 30% more money's worth of knowledge and experience to discern the difference. I wouldn't rely solely on any hired opinions from club members (judges or otherwise) either. One visit to the NCRS board will show just how many different opinions you'll get when questioning a pad's originality, and potential buyers paying them fees for car inspections is only asking for trouble and heartache. It's understood that time is always critical in buy/no buy decisions, especially in today’s active collector car market where 10 other buyers/bidders are beside you contemplating the same emotionally entangled purchase. Even so, be willing to walk away and leave others to learn the 30% lesson. Bottom line - for the average guy, forget numbers, focus on overall car condition - let the car speak for & sell itself. I'd be more concerned with frame rot, fiberglass, paint condition, overall mechanical condition than block numbers. Leave the higher dollar cars and their "original" engines to the dealers and investors who can stomach a 30% investment loss. If those cars pass muster with the broach scope - toting experts, then they've concluded amongst themselves that either; a) the block is original, or b) the restamp actually IS good enough to command +30% ...and they're ok with it either way.
If you’re a seller;
Simply present the car for what it is, to the best of your knowledge. Unless you bought the car new off the showroom and it's never left your possession, do NOT speak/write/imply as to it's "originality" while advertising/showing. As discussed, "matching numbers" and "original" have completely different implications in a courtroom while looking down the barrel of a civil lawsuit. If you are in fact misrepresenting your car for sale, be warned; most state DMV's can trace titles at least 10 years back (some across all 50 states) and there's plenty of amateur investigative services more than willing to track down a list of names/numbers for less than $100, even without employing the help of professionals. Don't be so naive as to think the buyer's not going to find at least one of the many previous owners who's able to testify (if necessary) as to the car's condition/configuration prior to sale. If you thought $10K profit and 10 years of biting your nails was worth the risk, wait til you see what a civil judgment costs you. If you're an owner who's since discovered your pride & joy has skeletons in it's glovebox (gasp!), take heart that your not alone ..either chalk it up to experience or proceed to litigate. Whether you choose to reveal your discovery/secret to the next buyer or not depends upon your own character and integrity for which nobody else can speak of.