95jersey

I think I have beaten this topic to death, but I have on last question on brake pads for those who use Hawk on their C5's...HPS or HPS PLus?

I talked to a performance shop listed on the forum and they recomended the Plus version for any car that sees track time, regardless of of how little. He told me that the PLUS version will actually last longer all around, and with regard to rotor wear...he told me that the street pads (stock) will actually wear rotors more quickly under track conditions than a more race oriented pad (HPS Plus) under these same conditions. Is this true? I am now faced with making a decision. Although I have choosed Hawk, as GM seems to promote them as an OE upgrade, I am not sure if I should be choosing the HP or HP Plus. I don't mind having to change the rotors out once every 2 years because of wear (I drive 8k miles per year including 3-4 track events), but on the same hand not every 6 months. I have always been one to make certain compromises for performance, but is the plus beyond this compromise?

Bill Benavitz

I don't know your intention, but in my opinion, a good track pad does not make a good street pad and vice versa.

Also, you should be in the habit of changing out to the track pads before any road course event, changing/bleeding the fluid, checking the rotors closely for excessive cracks and generally doing a once over inspection of the suspension. This is a good habit to get in to if you do any track events.

I think for the most part, failures reported by a small number of people during events related to the brakes usually meant this habit was not developed.

Sorry for ranting, but I am **** about this due to a brake failure I had at a Sebring track event in the late 80's.

z060ntrack

I agree with bill. I use the HP Plus for the track and the original "01 Z06 pads for the street. You won't be happy with the dust from the HP Plus on the street. :chevy

95jersey

Although I have heard that changing pads on rotors that have already been "bed in" is not a good idea. Someone from who responded to a similiar topic previously, stated because of the film left by the previous pad, you will not benefit from changing to a different compound. That this can actually cause poor braking performance...It's not that I don't beleive you, as you have many years of experience. I'm just trying to understand all the implications of changing pads.

To be honest, I do see myself checking the brakes before and after track events regularly, but I don't see changing all 4 pads for the event. I know this is not hard to do, as I have personally done this, but I would rather not do it. I would rather stay with a lesser pad and deal with some brake fade. I am not racing and do not care if I lose a few seconds.

Would the HP be a better choice than the stock for an all around pad?

adamsocb

Only if you don't mind cleaning your wheels every time you drive 25 miles or more.

The HP pads, both Street and Plus, dust much worse than stock.

On the swapping pads thing, I know it is not recommended but I do it every time I go to the track. I just re-bed the track pads on the first few warm-up laps and they seem to work fine.

Bill Dearborn

Up until 2000 I ran GM pads when I went to the track. They tapered like hell and the pedal went low but they stopped the car even though it took more effort. During that 3 years I was still on the original rotors. In 2001 I tried the Durastop pads at one track event and ruined the rotors while the pads did not stop any better than the OEMs. In 2001 I went with HP Pluses all the way around at the same track and found they did no better than the OEMs. It wasn't until I went to Hawk Blues that the braking improved any. The Blues are a high torque pad that really bite and I got 2 schools out of them and the set of rotors I used them with.

Last year I tried PFC 01s/99s and found that they were OK but not as torquey as the Blues. They didn't eat the rotors as badly but they did get hot enough to get a lot of small cracks on the rotors.

Bill

95jersey

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the info...per your e-mail would you then recommend the PFC's over the stockers and/or the Hawks? I think the blues are too aggresive for my taste. I would rather deal with some brake fade, then change rotors and pads every 2 events. But maybe I am in search of the impossible? I need a pad that will work pretty good on the street. I don't want to get into an accident, because the brakes are not hot enough?

Also, last year I did 2 events (1 day each) on the stock pads, and I still have the same pads and rotors in place with a decent amount of pad left. Actually, unless I was preparing for another track event, I wouldn't even consider changing them out at this point. It seems with pads choices, it's all or nothing...maybe I should stay with the stock pads and deal with the fade? But, I figured there had to be an aftermarket upgrade that would suit my needs.

ZR1 MK

Although I have heard that changing pads on rotors that have already been "bed in" is not a good idea. Someone from who responded to a similiar topic previously, stated because of the film left by the previous pad, you will not benefit from changing to a different compound. That this can actually cause poor braking performance...It's not that I don't beleive you, as you have many years of experience. I'm just trying to understand all the implications of changing pads.


The proper procedure when switching between pads of different compounds is to remove the material from the rotor with, for example, a 3M abrasive pad. This applies to carbon based pads. Its not imperative to do so, for after some use the different pad will transfere the new compound material to the rotor and function correctly. Unlike semi metalic pads, carbon based pads work by trasferring material to the rotor, therefore the need to clean when changing compounds. I use Hawk HPS for the street, Hawk Black on the front and HP Plus on the rear for the track. This is on a 1990 ZR1 Corvette with Wilwood Grand National fronts, Wilwood superlite rears. And yes, I do sand/scuff my rotors before track use.
Mike

95jersey

Great info ZR1 MK! How do you like the Hawk HP pads vs. stock on the street? Do you notice improved braking under semi harsh conditions?

90pololt4

We have not been to a high speed track. The two road courses at Vegas and Brag-Smith in NV. are what we have done so far. The C4 with two drivers and using the pf101's did get some fade after many laps. The Z06 with two drivers, with stock pads and cooling ducts did just fine at Bragg-Smith. No signs of fade and no cracking of the rotors.

Would it be worth it to have a separate set of rotors and pads just for the track and change them out each time?

95jersey

Unfortunately, by the time I changed out every pad and rotor, I think the entire school would be over...

At this point I'm either going for the new 2002 stock pad compound or the Hawk HP compound.

kraff

HPS for me. Fine on the street, fine on the track, less pad taper than stock, cheap. You are looking for a compromise as was I and I've been happy. Tires will make much more difference than will brake pads as will keeping those dogs cool, so don't worry so much. The only reason I use these as opposed to the OEM's is pad taper which changes the HT and drives me nuts at the track. As cheap as the streets are, if you hate them, you aren't out much $$ anyway ($130 or so all around).

Good luck :cheers:

Jim 47

95jersey:

There are probably as many pad preferences as ther are people who will share their preferences with you. For the street the stock pads are fine, unless you're a complete nut with brake use.

On the track maximum braking with stock rotors and calapers can be acheived with a pad like PFC 01. These pads also work very good at low temperatures, but the dust is unaccepatble, not only in the volume of dust, but the dust's clinging ablility on the wheels. It is hard to get off unless you clean your wheels every day. The Hawk pads, which I once used, also put out great volumes of dust, but this is a special dust, that turns into cement on the wheels once it gets wet and it is impossible to remove. I had to have a set of Forged Alloy Wheels professionally cleaned (very expensive) to get the Hawk dust off my wheels. So, I will not use Hawk pads any more.

The pads that I have found work very good on the street (good in the cold) with excellent bite, and also work almost as good on the track as the PFC 01's are the Carbotech Panther Plus Pads. Yes, they too dust pretty good, but not as much as the Hawks or the PFC's, but the good part is that the dust comes off easily, even if it get wet.

The above is from my experience with the pads mentioned, and I have no idea what the differences in compound or chemistry causes one brand to be better than another, but I now run stock pads on the street with their dedicated set of rotors, and on the track I run PFC 01's on the front and Carbotech Panther Plus on the rear with their dedicated set of rotors. Obviously, the track rotors aren't around that long, as they are a consumable (just like the Pads).

Whatever your choice of pads, try to get as much cooling air to your brakes as possible. You will find that cooler brakes will perform much better than hot brakes regardless of the pads you choose, but that dust just won't go away. :D

95jersey

Wow Jim! Now that's some good information. You have definately made me re-think this through again. At this point, I have changed my mind about 30 times now, but your argument has to be one of the most compelling I have read. I can't beleive that Hawk pads will do that to rims...I mean dust is one thing, but cement like dirt...NO THANKS!

Here's the deal...I want to stay with the stock rotors for now...and even if I switch to high performance rotors down the road, I do not want to switch them around for tracks events. Would you recommend the Panther Plus with stock rotors for the street and track? It's either this or the stock stuff, basically what is the next best pad above the stocker?

ZR1 MK

QUOTE:The Hawk pads, which I once used, also put out great volumes of dust, but this is a special dust, that turns into cement on the wheels once it gets wet and it is impossible to remove.

I also found this out the hard way. Although, I think the heat in the wheel is the cause of this condition. To remove the dust (cement as you refere) I used a clay bar. From then on my wheels get a fresh coat of wax before each track event. This solves that problem. This is one of a few reasons I recommended, in a previous post, the Performance Friction Z pad as a dual use pad. Note: Title should show HP Plus, not HPS Plus.
Mike

Jim 47

I really don't know what the next best pad above stock would be. The Panther Plus pads will work very well on the street or the track, but for street use you're not going to be happy with the dust, although the PP pad dust will not cement itself to the wheels, there is still lots of it, and the wheel cleaning will get tiresome real quick.

Im sure someone else here has some good experience with "better that stock pad" that won't drive you crazy with lots of dust. In the end it comes down to personal preference. :cool:

95jersey

you know what...I'm willing to deal with the dust at this point...worst case I just swap them out. I just don't want to deal with "cement situation" and excessive rotor wear.

OK, so now I am looking at the Panther Plus vs. Peformance Frictions Z pads, a far cry from my original choice (Hawk), but I think I am heading in the right direction.

larryfs

the hawk black pad dust is evil. I like the carbotech too.
if we get 5 people, larry @carbotech will give us 10% off.
that's what he did with us F-body folk.
anybody feel like calling him for a GP.

95jersey

I'm in for that!

ZR1 MK

QUOTE:Great info ZR1 MK! How do you like the Hawk HP pads vs. stock on the street? Do you notice improved braking under semi harsh conditions?

95 Jersey
There isn't a stock pad made for the Wilwood because they are not available on a stock car. I've never used a stock pad on the track. When I first started track events many years ago, I had used quality replacement pads from parts suppliers. On a short track like Lime Rock, all four pads would be smoking. On a long track like Bridgehampton, I would wear the fronts down to the metal backing and the rears 50 % down before one days event. From there I went to PF HPS. When the Z compound came out, I went with that. Keep in mind, for track use, stainless pistons and brake ducting is equaly as important as the pads.
Mike