thebishman

The problem is it is far too easy to get rapidly progressed into the Advanced group, and when there, so many drivers who should have remained in the Intermediate group for a couple more weekends believe they are ‘racing’ for a trophy. Everyone, everyone needs to be checking their mirrors and everyone needs to lift when you give the wave by. Unfortunately there are certain breeds who think that they can induce a mistake on the part of the following faster driver by giving the wave by really late coming into a corner after refusing to do so down 80% of the straight, and then there are others like the moronic BMW driver in the OP’s post wanting to drag race and stay in your blind spot in a series of corners. It is these types of unsportsmanlike behaviours that lead to accidents and cars being taken home on a trailer. If idiots want to prove their driving skills, get their SCCA Competition license and let them see how ‘good’ they really are.

SouthernSon

There are those C5's that can do it with only 418hp at the rear.

96GS#007

argonaut

Video 1: One thing you have to remember is you, in a Vette, come up on a car like a Miata very fast. He should have seen you coming and pointed you by early but in this case didn't for whatever reason. I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt unless he is consistently doing that, then take it to the CI.

Video 2: I'd say that's a good example of dangerous driving that should be taken to the CI. The BMW driver needs some re-education, that was ridiculous in an advanced group. If you hadn't said that I'd think it was his first day ever on track.

Regarding flashing lights: The only time I've ever seen that is from very, very fast cars - like a race team doing some testing of their prototype at a DE event. In that case it was actually much appreciate because the speed diff is incredible. But if a street car flashes...thats pure a$$ hat stuff.

Purple92

On video Number two - honestly that guy should NOT have been in the Advanced group - or he had almost zero experience with the track. He should have pointed you by FAR FAR sooner - but you already know that). His Instructor should have also "helped him" understand that you were back there.... Of course his instructor was probably busy trying to get him on line, and at least somewhat closer to the apexs.....

(My favorite way to explain to someone that they need to let people by is that if there is someone behind you for half a lap or so - God didn't put them there - they're behind you because they are faster than you - just let them by, and concentrate on what you're doing...

C5 Hardtop

Good track management is not easy to find and it is worth paying more for a good company, I don't mean club runs. The whole company hosted event is managed better when the track is managed having well thought out run groups, track timing AND verifying people who go on track are authorized to run in that group. Like a guy that stands at the track entry or a gate keeper to make sure people are doing it right and not trying to squeeze in more track time. The run groups need to be vetted so people with that behavior in the video isn't happening. I like it when they do signoffs where you have to qualify to move up in run groups instead of spewing out lip service to justify it.

Feffman

This is how we ask our attendees to handle it so it doesn't appear you are "that guy". This tends to go down a little easier with the offending non-pointer. We make it abundantly clear in the driver's meeting if this becomes endemic, the offending driver will have a "Come to Jesus meeting" possibly being parked for a session to drive the point home. Fortunately, it rarely comes to this.

Feff

SouthernSon

I have run with you guys at Putnam Park a couple of times in the past. Well run organization.

CJ Willys

Early in the event, ask organizers to remind drivers that if a car has caught up to you, give him a point-by.
But I’ve noticed in Advanced Groups, if you have the space, just overtake him. Probably I’ll get disagreement, but I see it happen.

Poor-sha

Honestly this stuff happens all the time in advanced groups. I will usually try to find the driver afterwards, strike up a casual chit-chat conversation with them about their car, then work in your car, and make mention of the point-bys. It's about the best I can do to not sound like a jerk. As for flashing your lights, the consensus seems to be that it's a jerk move but I know a guy who has done it after being stuck behind a car for over a lap that clearly just isn't paying attention.

P.S. was this at the Seat Time? I was there but in the "no-point needed" group.

shipahoy

NEWB off topic question, what camera are you using?

grandsport2017

I think the miata driver just wasn't checking his mirrors. I went back and reviewed the video for each session that day and 3 out of the 4 times I caught him on the front straight I had to lift because the point-by was delayed by just a few seconds. Overall a very minor, but annoying, inconvenience. The normal "take a break in pit lane to create space" option wouldn't work and wasn't necessary. I was hoping there was an on-track, non jerk-move, option to avoid the 1-2 second delay. After tracking my C7 for a couple of years I took an opportunity to take my stock E46 BMW to VIR. I spent two days with my arm out the window. I was aware of the speed differential and made sure to give early point-bys so faster cars would not have to lift. If all you've ever driven is a miata, it might not be obvious just how fast the closing speeds are. I'm not sure I could pull off a paddock discussion without sounding like a jerk, but probably worth a try.

This was the SCCA event the weekend before. I'm going to try and make it to the June 3rd Seat Time event. Maybe I can convince someone to let me drive in the "no-point needed" group... Other than the two drivers highlighted in the videos, everyone else was generous with point-bys and helped make sure passes happened safely. The organizers spent a lot of time talking about point-bys and safe passing. There wasn't a lack of instruction or guidance - some folks just don't listen.

Quote:

NEWB off topic question, what camera are you using?

The Performance Data Recorder (PDR) built-in to the car. It's been a factory option on the C7 since 2015 and is also available on the Camaro and the performance-oriented Cadillac models.

96GS#007

Stock C7 PDR pretty “meh” camera but the data is certainly nice. Lots more data is imbedded in the file and available via Pi Toolbox

In my C6 days, I used a GoPro with AIM Solo data overlaid. Actually looked much better. The software to do the overlay was like $40. “ RaceRender” as I recall.

CP Thunder

Seat time usually trumps HP. Just because they have it....doesn't mean they know how to drive it.

Bill Dearborn

I will take a slightly different view on this. In Video 1 the driver didn't give you a late point. When you were past him you still had plenty of track before the turn. All you had to do is keep the power on until reaching a brake point and then made an inside offline corner entry. The way I see the second video is the driver gave you a chance to get by at the beginning of a tight section of track and both of you had to manage the space in the turn so you could get by. He did slow down to let you pass but he couldn't lift completely and you had to slow more because you were way offline making the pass. Both of you had to manage a hard corner side by side which both of you should be more than capable of doing.

In the Advanced Group a driver should be capable of operating their car on any part of the track. That means being entirely comfortable with taking late passes including ones that are much later than the one in Video1 and being comfortable running next to somebody in a turn in order to complete a late pass.

Bill

grandsport2017

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean "late" in terms of track position. I meant "late" in that I had to lift off the gas and hit the brake to avoid going around him before the point-by was given. See the first 30 seconds of for an example of what you described in terms of keeping the power on until the braking point. Watch the first minute for an example of a decent pass into turn 5. I'll take a point-by pretty much anywhere if I trust the other driver not to hit me or run me off the road. In the second video, I got back to full throttle out of turn 5 to try and complete the pass. Not sure what else I could have done given that it appears he got back to full throttle too. The only discomfort for me in the second video were the mixed messages and the needlessly slow run through that section of track.

SouthernSon

I suppose once or twice is not totally unforgivable but a consistent habit can be frustrating. Sometimes we like to go for our personal best lap but if there are many cars on the track just accept that it ain't gonna happen. Also, if you just put on fresh, fast rubber it can be aggravating not getting that best lap. In the novice groups, one can expect a late point bye here and there. After all, folks are learning. In the experienced groups you won't find many drivers lifting so much to help accommodate your pass. Float the throttle- yes, park it - no. I like it that way. If you know what you are doing and have a lot of experience it is fun for passee and passor. There is absolutely no fun at all for me to have someone overly accommodate a pass for me. If you time your apex and pass correctly, you make the pass - it is not given to you. To make me work for it is one of the fun challenges of HPDE's these days after many, many years of road courses.

2000BSME

i don't understand why it would be asshat stuff if a fast street car flashed at you. Fast is fast. We all pay the same amount to be on track.

Purple92

Bill,

IMHO - It really depends on what HPDE events you do - some (many ???) groups DO NOT want to see you to go into a corner double file. With some HPDE's - going double file into a turn in a student group will get you an immediate black flag. It's even frowned on in the Instructor groups...

I do agree with you that by the time you're in the Advanced group - you should be comfortable driving "off line" in a corner, and should be able to deal with a late point by (including having the sense to realize when a point by is just too late - and it's not in anyone's best interest to take it. Unfortunately - I'm not at all sure that even half of the people in a typical HPDE Advanced group are in fact really at that level.

Purple92

Deleted - duplicate post .