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I'm doing a little research on requirements for fire extinguishers for HPDE. Our club is an NCCC affiliate and runs an annaul HPDE and drivers schools under NCCC rules (for insurance purposes). For high speed events (autocross, TT, or school) NCCC requires all cars to have a mounted fire extinguisher with metal brackets and gage. (Note: cars with extinguishing systems meet the requirement). I've been doing HPDE for more than a few years and have not run across another organization that has this requirement. Just wondering if anybody has seen this requirement anywhere else.
Thanks
Last edited by PaConehead; 02-26-2020 at 05:22 PM.
I've done a lot of HPDE's - and have never seen a requirement for each car to have an extinguisher. The mounting "language" is something I have seen before - but since the extinguisher was not required - the mounting stuff was just a recommendation.
And in more than 60 HPDE's - I've NEVER seen an in car fire extinguisher used. I've seen a fire extinguisher used in a garage when some spilled fuel ignited - but in that incident the extinguisher used was from inside the garage. I've never seen one of the in-car ones used....
I kind of doubt that the extinguisher rule they are stipulating is actually an insurance Requirement. I also think that by forcing participants to run extinguishers - they are intentionally limiting the number of people who will sign up for their events. They may fill their event this time - but those of us who have been doing HPDE's for 20+ years know that when the economy is "good" the events fill quickly - when the economy sours - the number of participants drops - normally quite fast. Groups start losing money - and more than a couple organizations doing track days have gone out of business. There are lots of opportunities to get to the track - find an event where the organizers actually treat the participants well !!!
Even if they don't require it, I would seriously recommend having at least one mounted in the car. It might be the difference in saving the car from a total loss by providing a little fire suppression before the track workers get to the car.
I’ve been instructing at HPDEs for 20 years and the only time I saw a fire extinguisher required was at NCCC events. I know it’s not an insurance requirement, I have rented tracks all over the US and purchased the necessary insurance when I created the NCM HPDE program. Years ago when I was starting out I remember the instructors at the time saying “the fire extinguisher is not fo your car, it’s for the other guy’s car. Your job is to get out of your ASAP if there is fire.”
There is a scenario where you may want access to one on the track that I have witnessed before. If you are running a course that has tall, unmowed grass that is very dry it can easily catch fire from the very hot exhaust should you have need to pull off track. There will be, from time to time, cars that need to pull off track to avoid an extensive clean up from spilled oil or antifreeze. The corner workers are pretty quick to get to a car in trouble but if it is your car that is on fire you will probably be out of the vehicle a lot quicker and better able to start extinguishing.
The extinguisher is a requirement from our insurance because it is in the rule book. Our insurance requires us to follow our rule book as stated. Our rules are setup for autocrossing and not necessarily HPDE. In what we call High-Speed autocrosses, usually on a road course, a fire extinguisher must be mounted with a metal bracket. In low speed events, parking lots, an extinguisher is not needed. HPDEs fall into the High Speed category for safety equipment required.
As part of the Indiana region, we only do one track event a year at Putnam Park. I have seen at least a couple of times where the fire extinguisher has been used. Once someone blew a motor and pulled into the grass. The hot oil caused the grass to catch fire. The driver got the extinguisher and put it out before corner workers could get there. Another time a 63 grand sport replica back-fired and caught his air cleaner on fire. He put it out with his extinguisher.
Extinguishers aren't hard to mount if you get the ones that mount to the front seat mount bolts. They sit right there in front of the seat and are out of the way from passengers. If you have a harness bar, one can be mounted on that easily also.
Remember, it is better to have and not need, than to need and not have!
Last edited by vettehardt; 02-27-2020 at 09:49 AM.
Even if they don't require it, I would seriously recommend having at least one mounted in the car. It might be the difference in saving the car from a total loss by providing a little fire suppression before the track workers get to the car.
Why would you want to NOT have one?!
Even if it's strictly a street car. Like they say, you will probably never need a fire extinguisher. But when you do, you really need one and you need it now. There is no substitute.
Brey Krause makes a nice bracket that mounts the extinguisher to the F of the seat. Get a nice Halon/Halotron extinguisher and smile.
Even though they're much cheaper, avoid dry chem. Wow, do they ever make a mess.
I kind of doubt that the extinguisher rule they are stipulating is actually an insurance Requirement. I also think that by forcing participants to run extinguishers - they are intentionally limiting the number of people who will sign up for their events . . . There are lots of opportunities to get to the track - find an event where the organizers actually treat the participants well !!!
Thanks Purple - you thoughts above go to the reason for my research. I have been running NCCC - and other organizations - for a long time and I'm active with the club that sponsors this event. We have seen a decline in participation - for several reasons - and the extinguisher requirement certainly doesn't help entice folks to participate. Thanks for your input
I really wasn't looking to get into a discussion of the wisdom to having an extinguisher in a car - but, I would offer a professional opinion that it may not be wise for an organization to require participants (who may not be familiar with the operation or limitations of a fire extinguisher) to fight a fire on a hot track; particularly with a relative small extinguisher. I have worked and consulted in risk assessment/mitigation work through my entire career, a lot of it has been in the area of fire safety and suppression - I would never recommend that a sanctioning group (like NCCC) should encourage or infer that an untrained person should take a small extinguisher to fight a car fire - the priority should be to get out, move to safety, and wait for the emergency crews or trained course workers. Just my opinion. That said - Just because NCCC requires it, I will re-install my 5# extinguisher and run this event. mostly to support my home club's fundraising efforts.
I'm doing a little research on requirements for fire extinguishers for HPDE. Our club is an NCCC affiliate and runs an annaul HPDE and drivers schools under NCCC rules (for insurance purposes). For high speed events (autocross, TT, or school) NCCC requires all cars to have a mounted fire extinguisher with metal brackets and gage. (Note: cars with extinguishing systems meet the requirement). I've been doing HPDE for more than a few years and have not run across another organization that has this requirement. Just wondering if anybody has seen this requirement anywhere else.
Thanks
Most organizations use the same 2 or 3 underwriting companies. NCCC used K&K Insurance for a long time and then switched to a different company sometime in the early 2000s (I was a Regional Competition Director for several years during that time). Even then NCCC required FE's in some cars plus there was a huge resistance from other Regional Directors to even let people participate in NCCC run HPDEs. They had a low and high speed autocross mind set and wanted to have no passenger rules (eliminating instructors), no passing rules, etc which would have gone a long way toward ruining any HPDE. At the same time I was participating in HPDE events conducted by other organizations like the BMW Club and for profit companies that were also using K&K Insurance and there was no requirement to use a FE in any of their HPDE insurance requirements.
What I found out from all of this was the NCCC fire extinguisher requirement isn't actually required by the insurance company. The insurance company depends on the rules of the organization. The organization has to follow it's rules so If the rules say you need a fire extinguisher then insurance says you need one. Remove the rule and the insurance company doesn't require it.
So basically the people responsible for the rules are being transparent when they say the insurance company requires FEs.
I can tell you from personal experience an FE mounted as NCCC requires is virtually useless if you need it. The only place to mount an FE in a Corvette with a stock interior is in front of the passenger seat. Imagine you are in any C4, C5, C6 or C7 and the engine blows setting oil and the car on fire. Once the car stops spinning and comes to a stop you need to remove your seat belt, raise your body high enough to be able to reach over the console and in front of the seat to unsnap the FE and then grab it and get out of the car. Some people mount their FEs on the rear bulkhead between the seats. Again the first thing you need to do is unfasten your seat belt and then raise/twist your body around to reach the FE, unsnap it and grab it then get out of the car. .
Why in the hell would anybody take the time to do that if the car is on fire????? The best thing to do is GET OUT!!!!! NOW!!!! Let the damned car burn to the ground while you are standing 100 ft away watching.
In 2011 I lost the engine in my C6Z going past the start finish line at the Glen. Braking and steering became big issues right then even at 120 mph. By the time I got the car stopped in the run off area off Turn 1 there was a huge cloud of smoke all around the car limiting my vision out of the car. The video from my on board camera shows from the time I realized I had to get out of the car until I was out took 10 seconds. I had race seats in the car, a HANS device and race harnesses. I did have an NCCC accepted FE mounted in front of the passenger seat. All that mattered was getting out of that car and away from it. I was out and standing away from the car by the time the Turn 1 fire truck reached me.
From a safety standpoint an FE in a car works when somebody else's car is on fire, not yours.
Of course a fire system provides protection with the pulling of one easy to reach switch.
There is a scenario where you may want access to one on the track that I have witnessed before. If you are running a course that has tall, unmowed grass that is very dry it can easily catch fire from the very hot exhaust should you have need to pull off track. There will be, from time to time, cars that need to pull off track to avoid an extensive clean up from spilled oil or antifreeze. The corner workers are pretty quick to get to a car in trouble but if it is your car that is on fire you will probably be out of the vehicle a lot quicker and better able to start extinguishing.
This is a good reaso to have one, I was in a car that started a grass fire at VIR. I asked my student where his was he said I don’t have one! First time I ever needed one and din’t have it.
BTW at that time NASA required one. I haven’t check their rules lately so maybe not anymore
This is a good reaso to have one, I was in a car that started a grass fire at VIR. I asked my student where his was he said I don’t have one! First time I ever needed one and din’t have it.
BTW at that time NASA required one. I haven’t check their rules lately so maybe not anymore
I suppose there are some scenarios where a small halon FE might not be the best but if I have to pull off of track in dry grass, I will exit the car as soon as I smell smoke and I WILL have my itty bitty halon in hand!
I don’t see any good reason not to have one. If you have a major issue and don’t have time to grab it, then it’s no different than if you didn’t have one.
If you have a smaller issue and don’t have one to grab you might watch your car slowly burn.
as stated previously, often it is for the other guy’s car. I came upon a car that ended up on a hay bale and got out with my extinguisher just as the driver exited. I was able to extinguish the fire while he watched.
Better to have and not need than need and not have, in my opinion.
Ive done multiple events at this track with different groups, no one ever asked or checked, Pretty sure it is for state insurance, I know that many tracks require a extinguisher in garages
Most organizations use the same 2 or 3 underwriting companies. NCCC used K&K Insurance for a long time and then switched to a different company sometime in the early 2000s (I was a Regional Competition Director for several years during that time). Even then NCCC required FE's in some cars plus there was a huge resistance from other Regional Directors to even let people participate in NCCC run HPDEs. They had a low and high speed autocross mind set and wanted to have no passenger rules (eliminating instructors), no passing rules, etc which would have gone a long way toward ruining any HPDE. At the same time I was participating in HPDE events conducted by other organizations like the BMW Club and for profit companies that were also using K&K Insurance and there was no requirement to use a FE in any of their HPDE insurance requirements.
What I found out from all of this was the NCCC fire extinguisher requirement isn't actually required by the insurance company. The insurance company depends on the rules of the organization. The organization has to follow it's rules so If the rules say you need a fire extinguisher then insurance says you need one. Remove the rule and the insurance company doesn't require it.
Bill
Bill, thanks for the historical background, it does indeed explain a few things about the NCCC FE requirement. And I'm with you on the "In case of fire - get out" strategy!
I've been on fire and stood helplessly beside my car while waiting for cornerworkers to get there with extinguishers. In my case, the fire was contained under the hood to the point where I definitely could have entered the passenger side to get an extinguisher and start putting it out myself. I now have an AFFF system in the car but for those who can't do a full fire system I would still highly suggest carrying at least a small bottle inside the car.
This was photo taken as we were standing in the grass, waiting for the cavalry to arrive. The fire was still burning oil spray under the hood. Luckily they were quick and were able to minimize the damage but if my car had burned to the ground while I stood there watching simply because I was ill prepared, I would have regretted it for a long time.
02-26-2020, 05:21 PM
Fire Extinguisher Requirements - HPDE?
I suppose there are some scenarios where a small halon FE might not be the best but if I have to pull off of track in dry grass, I will exit the car as soon as I smell smoke and I WILL have my itty bitty halon in hand!
