New to Vettes - C6 Track Car Questions
12-20-2019, 01:32 PM
#1
New to Vettes - C6 Track Car Questions
Hey. I am new, so take it easy on me. I have been reading up a ton trying to decide what my next track car will be.
A little back story. I currently have a Ford Focus ST and have been tracking this quite a bit, while continuing to daily drive it. I have also tracked my other cars before this too. I am to the point where I want to start pushing it a bit more, but to those of you who track know, if you can't afford to leave it at the track you probably shouldn't be taking it.
So the C6 has jumped to the top of my list for trackable candidates. I will weekend drive the car a bit but it will mostly be a track dedicated car doing 1-2 track days a month.
I am currently between the C6 Z51 and C6 Z06. The Z06 up in Canada seems to be $35k+ and the Z51 is $20k or so.
I am thinking of going 2008+ so I can get the LS3 over the LS2 if I get the Z51. Any year Z06 would be good.
I would like to keep it "cheap" if that is even the correct nomenclature. I would like to keep it sub-$50k and maybe stretch a tad beyond but not much. It will be N/A and it will be modified depending on what is "needed" to be a sustainable track car.
What are pro's and con's of each?
I know the LS7 has valvetrain issues which are easily fixed. It comes with more track ready brakes. Better cooling. Much better handling. Capability to make more power.
LS3 is arguably a more stout engine. But brakes, suspension, cooling will likely need to be addressed right away where the Z06 could be done eventually.
Any insight, experience or even links to tech articles would be greatly appreciated. I have already read quite a bit, but I just want to soak as much in as I can before making the decision.
A little back story. I currently have a Ford Focus ST and have been tracking this quite a bit, while continuing to daily drive it. I have also tracked my other cars before this too. I am to the point where I want to start pushing it a bit more, but to those of you who track know, if you can't afford to leave it at the track you probably shouldn't be taking it.
So the C6 has jumped to the top of my list for trackable candidates. I will weekend drive the car a bit but it will mostly be a track dedicated car doing 1-2 track days a month.
I am currently between the C6 Z51 and C6 Z06. The Z06 up in Canada seems to be $35k+ and the Z51 is $20k or so.
I am thinking of going 2008+ so I can get the LS3 over the LS2 if I get the Z51. Any year Z06 would be good.
I would like to keep it "cheap" if that is even the correct nomenclature. I would like to keep it sub-$50k and maybe stretch a tad beyond but not much. It will be N/A and it will be modified depending on what is "needed" to be a sustainable track car.
What are pro's and con's of each?
I know the LS7 has valvetrain issues which are easily fixed. It comes with more track ready brakes. Better cooling. Much better handling. Capability to make more power.
LS3 is arguably a more stout engine. But brakes, suspension, cooling will likely need to be addressed right away where the Z06 could be done eventually.
Any insight, experience or even links to tech articles would be greatly appreciated. I have already read quite a bit, but I just want to soak as much in as I can before making the decision.
12-20-2019, 02:02 PM
#2
Race Director
LS7 failures are not as common as the Internet makes it sound. The early LS3's were time bombs.
LS7 certainly has better cooling and brakes, but a true track car would require upgrades to both for either car. Same with suspension, the Z06 setup really isn't better than a Z51, just has the wider body and is cosmetically appealing and reduces lift at speed.
I've raced all of the, they are all good but have limits with cooling and braking. Honestly you already know this, so I think either could work fine for you.
LS7 certainly has better cooling and brakes, but a true track car would require upgrades to both for either car. Same with suspension, the Z06 setup really isn't better than a Z51, just has the wider body and is cosmetically appealing and reduces lift at speed.
I've raced all of the, they are all good but have limits with cooling and braking. Honestly you already know this, so I think either could work fine for you.
12-20-2019, 02:28 PM
#3
LS7 failures are not as common as the Internet makes it sound. The early LS3's were time bombs.
LS7 certainly has better cooling and brakes, but a true track car would require upgrades to both for either car. Same with suspension, the Z06 setup really isn't better than a Z51, just has the wider body and is cosmetically appealing and reduces lift at speed.
I've raced all of the, they are all good but have limits with cooling and braking. Honestly you already know this, so I think either could work fine for you.
LS7 certainly has better cooling and brakes, but a true track car would require upgrades to both for either car. Same with suspension, the Z06 setup really isn't better than a Z51, just has the wider body and is cosmetically appealing and reduces lift at speed.
I've raced all of the, they are all good but have limits with cooling and braking. Honestly you already know this, so I think either could work fine for you.
I like that the LS7 has dry sump too. It was just the trunnions popping out that was the issue from what I understand?
My plan would be to slowly upgrade the car as I go. I like that the Z06 has the better brakes out of the gate, but I would likely go Stoptech Trophy for front and rear eventually. For the Z06 I could go a year with the stock brakes with better 1pc pads and fluids where the Z51 I would just do the brakes right out of the gate.
What would you see the biggest upgrade would be for the Z51 other than brakes to get done right away? Or is it pretty good out of the gate? I just want worry free lapping and then the odd time attack sessions.
Ideally I would build up the motor over a winter for either to make it a little more potent, but I also don't want to buy something that I immediately need to sink $10k into it just to make it reliable on track.
12-20-2019, 02:49 PM
#4
Instructor
I did exactly what you are planning on doing. I had a Focus ST I tracked for a couple years then got an 08 Z06 to replace it. I would recommend a Z06 or Grand Sport. One reason I got rid of the Focus was because you have to spend a lot to get it faster but could only accomplish so much without ruining it as a daily. I chose the Z06 because it's a great base to build off. With the ST after so many upgrades you're better off just buying an RS and with the Corvette depending on your skill you can end up in the same boat with a base car. Either way each one is way better than an ST and tons more fun.
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JRPOnline (12-20-2019)
12-20-2019, 03:29 PM
#5
I did exactly what you are planning on doing. I had a Focus ST I tracked for a couple years then got an 08 Z06 to replace it. I would recommend a Z06 or Grand Sport. One reason I got rid of the Focus was because you have to spend a lot to get it faster but could only accomplish so much without ruining it as a daily. I chose the Z06 because it's a great base to build off. With the ST after so many upgrades you're better off just buying an RS and with the Corvette depending on your skill you can end up in the same boat with a base car. Either way each one is way better than an ST and tons more fun.
12-20-2019, 03:40 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
If you get a Z06, start with a 2009 or newer. This has the upgrade oil tank which you will want for track use.
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JRPOnline (12-20-2019)
12-20-2019, 03:42 PM
#7
12-20-2019, 05:32 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
2006-2008 Z06 is 8.0 quarts..
2009-2010 Z06 is 10.5 quarts. Which is the same as the ZR1.
2009-2010 Z06 is 10.5 quarts. Which is the same as the ZR1.
Last edited by DaOtherOne; 12-20-2019 at 10:41 PM.
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JRPOnline (12-20-2019)
12-20-2019, 05:34 PM
#9
Drifting
As someone with an original owner 2009 z51 dedicated track car, go with a GS or Z06. They are a much better starting point and really at the same price point once you factor in the diff cooler, better trans gearing, dry sump, lighter weight, monster power band, brakes, etc.
Once you get faster you'll still need suspension, brakes, bigger oil cooler, dry sump mods, race seat.
Once you get faster you'll still need suspension, brakes, bigger oil cooler, dry sump mods, race seat.
12-20-2019, 06:05 PM
#10
As someone with an original owner 2009 z51 dedicated track car, go with a GS or Z06. They are a much better starting point and really at the same price point once you factor in the diff cooler, better trans gearing, dry sump, lighter weight, monster power band, brakes, etc.
Once you get faster you'll still need suspension, brakes, bigger oil cooler, dry sump mods, race seat.
Once you get faster you'll still need suspension, brakes, bigger oil cooler, dry sump mods, race seat.
Is it STILL worth the difference even given the massive price difference?
Dry sump and brakes are the biggest things that are swaying me towards Z06. GS is a great car but at least here in Canada, there is only a $4-5k difference so its a no brainer to get the LS7.
12-20-2019, 10:27 PM
#11
Tech Contributor
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Oh really? What was the weak point on the early LS3's?
I like that the LS7 has dry sump too. It was just the trunnions popping out that was the issue from what I understand?
There were some trunnion issues but the one that has everybody in a tizzy is dropped exhaust valves. I had a dropped exhaust valve on my 2008 Z06 which destroyed the engine. I knew several other owners that had the same issue but I was luckier than most and the engine didn't grenade thus oiling down the track with a nice spin off track. Most of the engines that are being reported as having valve issues don't really have them. If the owner didn't have the valve guide clearance checked properly by tearing down the heads and disassembling them then they really don't know if they had an issue. A large number of people used the wiggle test which IS NOT EVEN incrementally better than not testing at all. Most of the failures (actually dropping a valve head) I knew about the engines had around 20 to 25K miles on them and had seen a lot of high rpm usage (7K). You have to check the valve train. No way around it, but have it checked correctly so you aren't purchasing a fix for something that isn't broken. It is going to cost at least $1500 to have the heads removed, disassembled and then checked by a qualified engine machinist. Figure between $3500 and $7000 for a repair depending on which valves you choose. I went with the $160 each Ti/Mo valves like Katech sells along with the appropriate bronze valve guides to go with them. For track usage you want the lightest, strongest valves you can get.
My plan would be to slowly upgrade the car as I go. I like that the Z06 has the better brakes out of the gate, but I would likely go Stoptech Trophy for front and rear eventually. For the Z06 I could go a year with the stock brakes with better 1pc pads and fluids where the Z51 I would just do the brakes right out of the gate.
The Z06/GS brakes are atrocious. I will tell you what everybody told me when I bought my 2008 back in 2009. Get an aftermarket big brake kit. Back then there was a choice of StopTech or Wilwood. Now there is AP Racing, StopTech and Wilwood. Don't even bother trying to use the stock Z06 brakes.
What would you see the biggest upgrade would be for the Z51 other than brakes to get done right away? Or is it pretty good out of the gate? I just want worry free lapping and then the odd time attack sessions. Again Brakes
Ideally I would build up the motor over a winter for either to make it a little more potent, but I also don't want to buy something that I immediately need to sink $10k into it just to make it reliable on track.
I like that the LS7 has dry sump too. It was just the trunnions popping out that was the issue from what I understand?
There were some trunnion issues but the one that has everybody in a tizzy is dropped exhaust valves. I had a dropped exhaust valve on my 2008 Z06 which destroyed the engine. I knew several other owners that had the same issue but I was luckier than most and the engine didn't grenade thus oiling down the track with a nice spin off track. Most of the engines that are being reported as having valve issues don't really have them. If the owner didn't have the valve guide clearance checked properly by tearing down the heads and disassembling them then they really don't know if they had an issue. A large number of people used the wiggle test which IS NOT EVEN incrementally better than not testing at all. Most of the failures (actually dropping a valve head) I knew about the engines had around 20 to 25K miles on them and had seen a lot of high rpm usage (7K). You have to check the valve train. No way around it, but have it checked correctly so you aren't purchasing a fix for something that isn't broken. It is going to cost at least $1500 to have the heads removed, disassembled and then checked by a qualified engine machinist. Figure between $3500 and $7000 for a repair depending on which valves you choose. I went with the $160 each Ti/Mo valves like Katech sells along with the appropriate bronze valve guides to go with them. For track usage you want the lightest, strongest valves you can get.
My plan would be to slowly upgrade the car as I go. I like that the Z06 has the better brakes out of the gate, but I would likely go Stoptech Trophy for front and rear eventually. For the Z06 I could go a year with the stock brakes with better 1pc pads and fluids where the Z51 I would just do the brakes right out of the gate.
The Z06/GS brakes are atrocious. I will tell you what everybody told me when I bought my 2008 back in 2009. Get an aftermarket big brake kit. Back then there was a choice of StopTech or Wilwood. Now there is AP Racing, StopTech and Wilwood. Don't even bother trying to use the stock Z06 brakes.
What would you see the biggest upgrade would be for the Z51 other than brakes to get done right away? Or is it pretty good out of the gate? I just want worry free lapping and then the odd time attack sessions. Again Brakes
Ideally I would build up the motor over a winter for either to make it a little more potent, but I also don't want to buy something that I immediately need to sink $10k into it just to make it reliable on track.
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 12-20-2019 at 10:27 PM.
12-22-2019, 12:19 PM
#13
Race Director
I will chime in with some reason here.
How fast ARE you? The c6, GS, Z06, whatever are all VERY fast cars. You're coming from a slow car that feels quick. It's a totally different game in a RWD, light weight, high powered car. Like being the best football player in High School, you may be TOTALLY outclassed in college.
I wouldnt worry too much about the things that arent 24 hours of le mans capable yet. The brakes on a z06 or GS will be WAY better than you are used to, and likely can use. Even a base c6 will brake in another world from what you're coming from. The power isnt even in the same world.
My point is, more than likely even the base car is more car than you can fully use now. A c6z or gs is likely more car than you can EVER fully use. The really smart choice would be to buy someone's gutted c4 or c5 that they used as a track car, and get used to that. Mistakes in a Focus ST happen at 40mph. Mistakes in one of these happen at 140. Theres a whole different outcome there, and level of risk. Are you going to walk away from a mangled vette you still owe (or just paid) 30k for and be ok with that?
You said you wanted to spend 50k on the project. The best advice I can give you is buy a purpose built race car that someone else already dumped all the money into and forget about driving it on the weekends. Use the savings from that and sell the focus to buy a big truck and a trailer.
How fast ARE you? The c6, GS, Z06, whatever are all VERY fast cars. You're coming from a slow car that feels quick. It's a totally different game in a RWD, light weight, high powered car. Like being the best football player in High School, you may be TOTALLY outclassed in college.
I wouldnt worry too much about the things that arent 24 hours of le mans capable yet. The brakes on a z06 or GS will be WAY better than you are used to, and likely can use. Even a base c6 will brake in another world from what you're coming from. The power isnt even in the same world.
My point is, more than likely even the base car is more car than you can fully use now. A c6z or gs is likely more car than you can EVER fully use. The really smart choice would be to buy someone's gutted c4 or c5 that they used as a track car, and get used to that. Mistakes in a Focus ST happen at 40mph. Mistakes in one of these happen at 140. Theres a whole different outcome there, and level of risk. Are you going to walk away from a mangled vette you still owe (or just paid) 30k for and be ok with that?
You said you wanted to spend 50k on the project. The best advice I can give you is buy a purpose built race car that someone else already dumped all the money into and forget about driving it on the weekends. Use the savings from that and sell the focus to buy a big truck and a trailer.
Last edited by FAUEE; 12-22-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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Captain Buddha (12-27-2019)
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JRPOnline (12-23-2019)
12-23-2019, 01:56 PM
#16
I will chime in with some reason here.
How fast ARE you? The c6, GS, Z06, whatever are all VERY fast cars. You're coming from a slow car that feels quick. It's a totally different game in a RWD, light weight, high powered car. Like being the best football player in High School, you may be TOTALLY outclassed in college.
I wouldnt worry too much about the things that arent 24 hours of le mans capable yet. The brakes on a z06 or GS will be WAY better than you are used to, and likely can use. Even a base c6 will brake in another world from what you're coming from. The power isnt even in the same world.
My point is, more than likely even the base car is more car than you can fully use now. A c6z or gs is likely more car than you can EVER fully use. The really smart choice would be to buy someone's gutted c4 or c5 that they used as a track car, and get used to that. Mistakes in a Focus ST happen at 40mph. Mistakes in one of these happen at 140. Theres a whole different outcome there, and level of risk. Are you going to walk away from a mangled vette you still owe (or just paid) 30k for and be ok with that?
You said you wanted to spend 50k on the project. The best advice I can give you is buy a purpose built race car that someone else already dumped all the money into and forget about driving it on the weekends. Use the savings from that and sell the focus to buy a big truck and a trailer.
How fast ARE you? The c6, GS, Z06, whatever are all VERY fast cars. You're coming from a slow car that feels quick. It's a totally different game in a RWD, light weight, high powered car. Like being the best football player in High School, you may be TOTALLY outclassed in college.
I wouldnt worry too much about the things that arent 24 hours of le mans capable yet. The brakes on a z06 or GS will be WAY better than you are used to, and likely can use. Even a base c6 will brake in another world from what you're coming from. The power isnt even in the same world.
My point is, more than likely even the base car is more car than you can fully use now. A c6z or gs is likely more car than you can EVER fully use. The really smart choice would be to buy someone's gutted c4 or c5 that they used as a track car, and get used to that. Mistakes in a Focus ST happen at 40mph. Mistakes in one of these happen at 140. Theres a whole different outcome there, and level of risk. Are you going to walk away from a mangled vette you still owe (or just paid) 30k for and be ok with that?
You said you wanted to spend 50k on the project. The best advice I can give you is buy a purpose built race car that someone else already dumped all the money into and forget about driving it on the weekends. Use the savings from that and sell the focus to buy a big truck and a trailer.
I already have Stoptech Trophy big brake on my ST which was a massive upgrade. With Hawk DTC-60 pads the car decelerates like no ones business but I understand the grip and lower weight will exacerbate that quite a bit. I am more looking to start with the best platform to build up to be a dedicated or mostly dedicated track car so I can leave my daily driver alone. I am not looking for the best of the best as I will mainly be using it for HPDE but I also don't want something that is junk and won't take the abuse I will put into it.
The whole reason I am looking for a track car is so that if something does happen at the track, it can sit in my garage and be repaired. I will still have a way to work. I am just looking to get better as a driver by having my own car to beat on and not worry about so much. I would not say I am a novice driver by any stretch, but I am not a pro either. I do 6-8 track days a year with my work and then I do 3-4 time attack rounds per year but I would like to do more.
I just want to spend $50k on the car with the first round of mods to get it ready for the year. I have been on Racing Junk checking out what there is, but 99% of it is in the US and I am in Canada. So that becomes a headache on its own. I have probably spent $15-20k on my Focus ST as it sits and that money just needs to be better directed. So a project car would be the best bet rather than continue to rag on my daily.
12-23-2019, 02:21 PM
#17
Drifting
Member Since: Dec 2017
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2023 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2022 C6 of the Year Winner - Unmodified
you wouldn't happen to be the same JRP who hosts the Mosport track days?
I ask, because I attended one of the JRP events (first time) last September with my then relatively new to me C6Z...
(and, it was first time I had seen Derek Johnston in probably 30yrs)
I ask, because I attended one of the JRP events (first time) last September with my then relatively new to me C6Z...
(and, it was first time I had seen Derek Johnston in probably 30yrs)
Last edited by tommyc6z06; 12-23-2019 at 02:21 PM.
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JRPOnline (12-23-2019)
12-23-2019, 05:23 PM
#18
They are awesome days and I want something to enjoy MoSport a little more. That back straight is a bit long in my Focus ST haha
Last edited by JRPOnline; 12-23-2019 at 05:24 PM.
12-23-2019, 07:08 PM
#20
Racer
I just made a similar change from a ST to a C5 Z06. Out of your options I'd do the Z06, or grand sport if you can find one for a reasonable price. You'll have a much more capable car out of the box, and a better platform to build on for the future, assuming you don't want to do an engine swap on the Z51. After I passed a C6 Z06 during one of my track days, I'd say that people dont give the STs enough credit... but I totally understand why you'd want to change.
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JRPOnline (12-27-2019)