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I am reaching a point where I am out-growing the car and I am limited by money (who hasn't). I have stopped improving at my local track (basically stuck at ~1:01 for the last 20 sessions or so). What is limiting my improvement so far is the complete inability to compress my breaking zones because of my extremely unreliable factory brakes (cracking disks all the time, fluid boiling after 5 minutes even with super expensive castrol srf racing). I don't know when the car will stop or when it will go through the corner I need to go, so I end up breaking way too early. That whole thing
After each track night (2 sessions), I have to put the whole car in the air, remove tires, then bleed all lines at least 5 pedal shot. Most of the time, that won't bring a firm pedal, so I put a long tube on the bleeder and put the other end in the master cylinder reservoir and push about 40 times for each corner. That is after every time I go on the track. I replace the fluid completely 3 times a season.
This year, I have focused on fixing problems and lowering consumable costs by buying a square wheel setup.
My 2002 z06 currently has the following upgrades:
2018:
OMP seat + marrad bracket
SS brake lines
DRM trans+diff cooler
RD with EoC radiator
1-4 shift bypass
Muffler bypass mod
Lots and lots of seat time (something like 25 hours on track)
2019:
Clutch remote bleeder
Catch can (trying to remove oil in the intake)
18x10.5 china wheels
2x SKF racing bearings (rear)
Track friendlier alignment ( Camber -1.5F/-0.5R, Toe out 0.5 deg). Can't put more camber in the front because of tie rods being too short
Much less seat time but on different tracks
Now, I have three things I'd like to improve on.
The factory brakes a insanely terrible. Soft pedal within 5 minutes, and that is with PFC11 brake pads. I tried a couple blanks and I found one what was pretty thick and wouldn't crack every other session.
With a square setup, the rear is quite snappy. I am getting to a point where I can control it, but I'd like something a bit more progressive. I'd like to swap to a coilover/adjustable swaybar to be able to do suspension tweaks
Be able to do an alignment (especially camber) with a preset kit, so I can work on it without needing a completely flat surface, which I do not currently have.
By budget for 2020 is 8000CAD (including taxes, shipping and duties, fuel used at the events, and events themselves). PFC11 pads cost about 1100$, and tires about 1700$. I am left with 4000USD with the current exchange rate. That leaves 0$ for events if I spend that entire amount.
I expect I have enough tire left for maybe a dozen sessions for 2020, but I will absolutely need new pads.
Keeping in mind that I am trying to lower my consumable costs as much as possible (so I have more money for events and upgrades), I am facing choices. Based on what I can find here, I can waste money and time trying to make the factory brake work with ducts that will break all the time, upgrade the factory cylinders to stainless, or mess around with swapping brakes from a C6 and having to mess around with custom brackets and such, or just buy a proper AP Racing kit and be done with it. I am not aiming for more stopping power since I don't see myself running slicks, but long term consummable costs, reliability and durability.
So, here is the options I can come up with.
Buy this insanely expensive kit and never think about it again. 4200$ (kit) + 200$ (Pad) + 308$ (7% sales tax) + 100$ shipping = 6330$.
Obviously, doing this remove half the pad cost since I am not buying them for my front kit, and I won't need tires, so I can do maybe one event for the whole season.
Buy this much cheaper kit, but at the end, its still only 325mm of disk (not much more cooling area). Consumables are cheaper but they won't last as long. That would leave me some money for other things
Do the DRM brake cylinder swap, get a coilover, swaybar and tie rods to get a more aggressive alignment, add some brake ducts. Hope to be able to keep speed through the corner and be less taxing on garbage brakes.
What would you do?
Bonus questions: I'd like to add that I recently tried a slightly modded BRZ on the track. I absolutely loved how sharp everything was. My C5 feels so much lazier on everything (steering, throttle response, shifter smoothness and especially brakes). I'd love to have a much less "damped" feeling with my car. Is the master cylinder part of this issue? How can I improve on that?
I did buy very expensive brakes(ap) and they are hilarious to use, outbrakeing the 991GT3RS guys is well.. fun .
I also love the direct feel of the uniballs in control arms.
I think brakes and bushings + alignment is what "made" the car for me.
Your alignment sounds very very mild though, so I'd do that, probably as the first thing, should help with tire wear.
I have not used the car long enough to comment on consumables. but I did go with the AP kit partly because of it, the thin padlets and 1 piece rotors on stock cost $$$ (for proper rotors)
I did buy very expensive brakes(ap) and they are hilarious to use, outbrakeing the 991GT3RS guys is well.. fun .
I also love the direct feel of the uniballs in control arms.
I think brakes and bushings + alignment is what "made" the car for me.
Your alignment sounds very very mild though, so I'd do that, probably as the first thing, should help with tire wear.
I have not used the car long enough to comment on consumables. but I did go with the AP kit partly because of it, the thin padlets and 1 piece rotors on stock cost $$$ (for proper rotors)
(c6 z06)
Right, forgot about that. The "lazy" car is probably coming from my worned out rubber bushings. Yet another thing to add to the list...
I'll get more camber once I can get longer tie rods. I just need to find some that last longer than a season.
My car is a 2008, with 40k miles, that never seen track use, and even then, the difference to the AMT uniballs was night and day, like it wasnt even the same car. then the alignement on top, wowie.
I went AP radical 372 6 pot up front, and old style AP caliper in rear, think 340 rears. I think what does it is the width of the rotor and that it dissapates heat so much faster, the caliper just gives a good pedal feel.
I do see good brake kits for sale here from time to time, which are.. insane deals.
Contact forum sponsor TCE Todd. I've raced W2W on just a front set of Wilwood calipers for years. Pads are 150-200 bucks for the front and last a season of W2W racing. He can get you excellent brakes for much less than what you are looking at. I haven't run the uber expensive stuff but I'm sure it is great, however, if you don't have unlimited funds I highly recommend going the Wilwood route and having money to do other things. The Wilwood front calipers will pay for themselves within a year on pad savings.
-Adrian http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/
Contact forum sponsor TCE Todd. I've raced W2W on just a front set of Wilwood calipers for years. Pads are 150-200 bucks for the front and last a season of W2W racing. He can get you excellent brakes for much less than what you are looking at. I haven't run the uber expensive stuff but I'm sure it is great, however, if you don't have unlimited funds I highly recommend going the Wilwood route and having money to do other things. The Wilwood front calipers will pay for themselves within a year on pad savings.
-Adrian http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/
The durability is amazing. I switch once a year and the pads still have more material than stock pads. I'll probably switch more often this year because of increased budget. I used to think Wilwood pads were inferior. You couldn't get the HH pads out of my cold, dead hands now.
I second the Aero6 caliper from wilwood. Get carbotech pads. Awesome braking and less than half the price. Upgrade the bushings. Forget coilovers, too expensive. Get bilstein sports. Fantastic shock. And cheap.
What tires are you guys running? I tried continental xtreme contact (awful, overheat like nothing), Goodyear eagle F1 supercar (no grip, overheat after 10 minutes but half the price of the michelins), and Michelin Pilot Sport 4s (best tire so far).
The durability is amazing. I switch once a year and the pads still have more material than stock pads. I'll probably switch more often this year because of increased budget. I used to think Wilwood pads were inferior. You couldn't get the HH pads out of my cold, dead hands now.
Sorry, I was unclear. How is the durability of the caliper itself? My factory ones are starting to warp and many people I talked with said that most calipers wont resist heavy usage on extended work.
i 3rd Aero6 calipers
strength/ spreading is a non issue with there "high strength forged triple bridge body design"
hardly any pad taper at all because the pistons are stagared to prevent this.
seen here. largest piston is last in line
The DRM master swap won't do anything for you. Thats for cars without the automatic brake proportioning (aka, add in all the rear brake, then take it away using ABS).
I won't harp on what our AP Racing Brake Kits can do, but my advice is to do it once and do it right. To my knowledge we have never had a single client tell us, "I wish I hadn't spent so much on your brake kit." Quite the opposite in fact. The vast majority tell us it is one of, if not the, best mod they've made to their car for track use.
Here's a video we put together on planning for brake needs.
I won't harp on what our AP Racing Brake Kits can do, but my advice is to do it once and do it right. To my knowledge we have never had a single client tell us, "I wish I hadn't spent so much on your brake kit." Quite the opposite in fact. The vast majority tell us it is one of, if not the, best mod they've made to their car for track use.
Here's a video we put together on planning for brake needs.
Hello Jeff, I did my research since the last time I spoke with you. Notice that I went from "LOL you guys are selling overpriced snake oil" to "I would like to buy AP racing brakes but my limited budget means I can't track a whole year". If you guys have a kit that come up on sale, or I can find one used that has everything I need, I'll jump on it.
After reading this(link doesn't work on mobile), there is no question in my mind on which brakes I wanna see on my car. I also spoke with a few guys that ran your brakes here. Most of them didn't have them for long enough to comment on durability. The two that did told me that they needed to swap rings every year. One was a full race subaru WRX and I don't remember the other car.
I am checking at your kits, and I doubt the 325mm will be enough as it is close to the factory size. On the other hand, the 355mm kit is twice the price for both the kit and the consumables. I wouldn't mind for the pads since they are much bigger under the 6 piston caliper and will last longer, but the rings come up at 400$ each. Given that I am not looking for more stopping power, but just more cooling area, I don't really care about the 6 piston caliper. I just want the bigger disk. Maybe wilwood has something like this.
If I had unlimited money, I wouldn't even think about it. Unfortunately, I have to make choices; I am just trying to be an educated consumer, do my homework and give a healthy chance to the competition. Obviously, the spotless reputation of you and the essex brand weigh heavily in your favor and I am willing to shed a few extra dollars for your kits, but if I can find something that works for me for, say, 1000$, I'd be stupid not to jump on it.
I will try to find a comparable wilwood kit, compare the prices of the consumables and make a decision from there.
Have you tried any of those? I have heard a couple complains about these kits not being direct fit and having to fiddle quite a lot to make em right.
Also, do you know if they will fit nicely with 10.5 width rims or will I need to remove them each time I leave the track?
Someone has recommended I run these, especially on low speed tracks like we have here. Does it makes sense to you?
Caliper durability is not an issue. I've never had to rebuild the caliper (put new seals and/or pistons in it) and there is no warping. For tires, use NT01s if you have a second set of wheels (I don't know how they hold up for street use).
I raced for three years on the OEM C6Z calipers with stainless steel lines, DBA rotors and Carbotech XP24 pads with cooling ducts. What a disgusting, horrible setup it was, also of which nearly killed me. Did it stop the car? Yes of course, at least most of the time. But I quite literally was the idiot during lunch time sweating my *** off swapping pads, guestimating when a particular rotor would crack (any minute), worrying over pin bolts backing out, dealing with fading, fighting taper, watching the caliper eat itself etc. I would bring a full set of new rotors and pads to every race weekend and knew at some point I would be replacing, and then again when I got back home (and again and again and again and again). I have done the brakes on my car so many times that I never want to see or touch them again. I was always worrying and fretting over my brakes, not just over lunch time but also during races. It was extremely stressful, time consuming and utterly annoying to the extreme. I also wasted ALOT more $$ on pads and rotors than the final cost of the AP racing setup (making long term costs vastly higher doing what I was doing like an idiot). So it was both a monumental waste of time, energy and $$, in addition to simply being not safe when a C6Z with full aero, full suspension is raced at 10/10ths (or even tracked).
After yet another particularly gruesome failure, I finally manned up and bought AP Racing Radical setup on all 4 corners. My goodness what a difference. I have been to six races this year, multiple HPDE testing (at Watkins Glen - which is so abusive on brakes that it is astounding) and haven't as much as glanced at my setup. I swear they still look brand new. I tried to buy an extra set of rotors from Ritter (as I am used to lugging around multiple spares) and his response was "Why? You won't be needing them anytime soon so I'm not going to sell you them". What the hell!? Sell me another set of rotors, Ritter, so I feel better. Nope, the damn guy refused. And guess what, my rotors look perfect and I have abused this setup to the absolute extreme (sub 2:00 mins at WGI, sub 1:00 at Limerock, NJMP etc etc). The setup is dead-on consistent every single time. It never fades, it never changes, it never gives up. I can go deeper, longer and with far, far more confidence. When I come in, I don't even look at the damn things anymore as they take the abuse easily, as if this is what they were specifically designed for (and apparently they are). And during lunch time I now sit in the shade and drink lemonade, watching all the idiots that used to be me fretting over their brakes in the hot sun.
I did manage to convince Ritter to sell me a spare set of front pads (for piece of mind), and guess what? They are sitting at the bottom of a toolbox somewhere collecting dust. Why I didn't do this three years ago is beyond my comprehension. I regret waiting and I paid the price for it. Some guys on here know what happened to me, and it wasn't pretty.
So my advice is to do it right, do it once and for all, and never worry again. A no-brainer, so easily understood once you have been through it.
Look at these monsters. See those pads? That is after 6 races, 5 sets of Hoosier R7s and multiple abusive HPDE events (some at the Glen which destroys brakes):
I don't even know why I bother looking anymore, as they always look perfect:
07-31-2019, 08:42 AM
Help me prioritize
