clearwaterms

i just completed my second HPDE day last weekend and I am starting to see the addiction. With my first day (well 1/2 day as each day has only been 3 sessions) I was a bit nervous and I did Autobahn full course which is a lot of race track to remember. With my second day I did just Autobahn north and by the end of the first session I had memorized the track and was starting to understand what the racing line should be (hitting that however is something I am still working on)

Setup:
C6 base car (non-z51)
standard brakes /w z06 brake ducts
new EBC blue stuff pads & Motul 600 fluid
brakes bled using motive pressure bleeder
conti ECS street tires (340tw)

Here are my questions:

What is easier on the brakes, standing on them for the distance of a single brake marker or sustained/increasing pressure for the distance of 2-3 brake markers?

What rookie mistakes should I look out for with regards to brakes?

I know that you are only fast when you are applying throttle or brake, coasting into a braking zone is not the fastest way around a corner. That being said I feel like I was done braking before corner entry, how long before you have enough trust in yourself and your car to stay on the throttle for that extra 1/2 brake marker... In other words, I would remember a corner and say "brake at 3" but then I would get to marker 4 and run out of confidence to stay on the throttle that extra 1 second but be done braking by 2.

How many days, sessions, etc. do people get out of brake pads? Do people bring an extra set with them?

After Saturday's event; I noticed that the brake pedal travel got longer but the stopping distance was still about the same. Another way to describe it is that the amount of travel required to engage the ABS was greater but I was still able to reach the limit of the brakes. I took the car out on the street yesterday and noticed that the brake performance was fine but compared to the factory pads or the pads when they were new; the top bit of travel on the pedal is soft. What is the likely cause of this? Is this just a result of kicking other fluid into the system from the ABS system?

dclafleur

I'm not sure "easier" on the brakes is the right mentality. Braking done in a straight line should be a quick transition off the throttle and a hard squeeze on the brake pedal. Confidence in braking will come with being comfortable on the line, starting out focus on hitting the line and hitting the marks. If you're hitting the marks you'll start to see where you can carry more speed in which will allow you to brake later.

andersnor

EBC for track use is.. meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh at best btw.

clearwaterms

What make/model do you recommend?

KNSBrakes

C5 and C6 Base brakes get hot quick and the pads taper.

The parts probably did OK as a newer track guy but there is likely front to rear pad wear which is what causes the 'long pedal'

For your car they are great when brand new but degrade rapidly especially as you get faster.

So yes to spares - and consider better blank rotors. The cheapies are known to crack easily.

-Ken

Bill Dearborn

Since you have the base C6 brakes they are the same as the C5 brakes and susceptible to longitudinal brake pad taper. Here is a picture of some of my old C5 brake pads from close to 20 years ago:


Notice how the pads are tapered along the length. The pads in the front calipers develop this taper quite easily. The driver's side will taper one way and the passenger side will taper the other. This taper results in increased pedal travel as it gets worse since the caliper pistons have to travel further to push the pads into the rotor. One way to reduce the effect is when applying the brakes is to first apply a gentle pressure and once the pads are in contact with the rotor push hard. Not quite a slam on your brakes type of thing but a soft slam.

To counteract the taper one thing that can be done is to literally swap the pads from one side of the car to the other. The outside pad in the left caliper becomes the inside pad on the right caliper. This will cause them to wear in a manner that reduces the taper. I used to do this after each day. However, you still need to manage the taper for a day at least which means knowing how to apply pressure to the brake pedal to help reduce the rate of taper increase. One other thing you can do to eliminate the long travel when coming to a turn is to reach over to the brake with your left foot and while your right foot has the throttle all the way to the floor tap the brake pedal with the left foot a couple of times just before you get to your braking zone. That way the pads are in contact with the rotor and don't have to pushed as far.

While driving on the street you may notice the brake pedal travel getting better since the taper seems to reduce with extended street driving and easy use of the brakes.

The way to get over this problem is to change to fixed brake calipers Vs floating calipers since fixed calipers aren't as sensitive to the issue as floating calipers are.

Bill

strano@stranoparts.com

That's like saying Chevys for track you are meeeeh.

EBC as a brand not a compound. Have you tried the blue stuff? because I do a lot of brake pads, and more importantly I've run a lot of brake pads. No they are not Ferodo DS1.11, but I've got a lot of track time using those on my c6Z06 with quite good results. the biggest problem with those pads on that car are the factory front calipers.

strano@stranoparts.com

Using the brakes for a short a time as possible, which generally means using them as hard as you can when required, ultimately puts less heat into them and give more time for cooling when you are off of them.

BigMonkey73

Raybestos ST43 was my favorite pad for the OEM calipers for my C6 Coupe after trying Stoptech 309 / PFC 11 / Hawk HP+

Assuming you started with a good amount of pad left before the event, the travel getting longer during a session is most likely a sign that you need a different compound because those are wearing down too quickly. Step up to something more aggressive.

I had Motul RBF 600 fluid for the longest, but I got tired of fluid changes during the year (I'd do them every 2 or 3 events). I finally gave in and did Castrol SRF and only do a flush once a year with a bleed or two in between. Am very happy with that decision.

If you're running with nannies on, even competition mode, that will wear out your pads quicker..especially the rears. I ran with comp mode all the way up till I was in the advanced run groups before I was brave enough to turn them all off. Once I did it, I realized that the difference between comp mode and everything off isn't really as much or scary as I thought it to be. In fact, if I try to run comp mode now..I immediately notice how much it was interfering where I don't want it to. Something to consider for sure. When you get faster, the nannies are most certainly holding you back.

KNSBrakes

I would flip my pads at lunch and at the end of the day to equalize wear. It was pretty consistent but basically just put the thick where the thin is. The faster I got the worse it got. Front pads were only good for a weekend before I finally switched to a better caliper and rotor.

BigMonkey73

One word of warning about changing pads: Make sure you have a proper torque wrench for the job..and get some extra caliper bolts and guide pins to use and as backups to take to the track. They aren't meant to be re-used indefinitely. With so much heat being put on the caliper and/or them not being tightened properly, the bolts can back out during a session and that would be bad..very bad. Ask me how I know.

KNSBrakes

I forgot to put the inner pad back in once. That was fun!

andersnor

castrol SRF (due to wet boiling point) and some very racy pads (I had luck with XP12/10), but there are a lot of options that are very good from supporting vendors here, I did it on my C6 2006 Z51, kept oem rotors, it was night and day vs stock.
remember to do proper cooldown or the heat will transfer into hubs and other parts, also warp rotors, I would always go back on the pubic road before drivin back into pits. I pay /wrench myself and we dont get any money for driving fast on trackdays and not cooling down..



I loved my base ls2 C6 Z51 so much, awesome car, but did swap it for a Z06 now with AP racing front & back on DS3.12... castrol SRF and stainless lines etc.. wowie, now thats good brakes. but also $$$$$$$$$

Racingswh

If they have Raybestos ST43's for your calipers that's what I would use. Always have an extra set with you as well as another set of rotors. When you put them on buy another back up set. I like SRF for fluid.

Regarding your braking application questions they are the most common issues. All but the fastest have the same issues. The fastest in these cars like Andrew Aquilante are masters of entry speed and brake release. It takes time and is extremely difficult to teach especially if you're trying to learn car control at the same time.

Before moving your brake point in closer to the apex I would instead try less brake pressure at the same point. A car standing on it's nose is harder to balance at brake release than one that is carrying weight more evenly distributed over the 4 contact patches. This will typically result in less entry drama and more speed all the way through the corner. If you truly are new I would concentrate on being safe and smooth first. Listen to your instructors. Speed will come with seat time.