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Ok, apologies in advance, I am sorry to start an internet fight, but rear shocks absolutely have a big effect on controlling the front end. PLEASE READ the article referenced. From the Shock Tuning article, and using the article's terminology, look at the column chart towards the end. This chart shows what shock tuning adjustments to make for changes in the car's balance. For example in "Phase 1" of corner entry, which is described in detail in the article you can make two shock adjustments to increase understeer; add "bump" or compression resistance on the F front shock or on the R REAR shock, decrease rebound resistance, speeding up extension. Shocks' function is to control the rate of weight transfer around the car. Weight transfer from front to rear and side to side and the corresponding load that transfer induces on the tires and the available grip resulting.
I can't get the chart to copy over correctly, but please anybody interested follow the link and read the Shock Tuning Article.
No internet fight here. You're right, based on the way that you interpreted Aldan's statement. I was thinking they meant that rear shocks control front suspension's movement, because in the previous sentence they were focused on "nose-dive" and then the sentence about the rears says they "control the front end as well." But yes, if they meant that rear shocks can affect front-end grip (by trading off rear grip), then yes they can do that.
Last edited by MatthewMiller; 01-25-2019 at 05:02 PM.
Well........I got the new ones today, but one has 9 clicks of adjustment and the other one has 10....should be 11....
That being said, they will probably have to send two more replacements and I'll have to ship these back.
Not good. Not good at all.
Who is paying for all this shipping back and forth?
So here’s the latest, I received the second replacement rear shock from Aldan last week and before I put it on I tested the rebound **** and sometimes when I compressed it on full soft (fast rebound with **** rotated all the way counter clockwise) the shock would only rebound about halfway through the stroke then lock up and I could only unlock it by compressing it a few times. Also unlike the other rear shock, I was unable to manually work the nitrogen air bubbles out and the shock rebound dampening stops working at the top 1/3 of the stroke and the shock shoots upward till it hits the internal stop. Aldan had said that the car needs to be driven to work out the nitrogen so I installed the shocks and to my dismay, just like SteveSierra, I maxed out the preload and the car is still slammed with nearly no fender gap and there is no way I can make it over a speed bump. It looks like this setup doesnt work well with the C6 platform.
This whole thread is such a pain and I wish it would disappear from the main page of the forum, but it keeps getting bumped even though it's WAY off track from the original discussion.
Here are the lessons that I take from this thread.
1. The OP talked smack about leaf springs when he obviously doesn't know squat about suspension dynamics.
2. One experienced forum member tried to relay that information in a nice manner, but it was ignored.
3. The OP decided to spend (waste) money on some aftermarket crap that proved to be just that - crap.
4. We are all now dumber because of this ridiculous thread.
5. The vast majority of the proven fast Corvette racers are still on leaf springs.
6. The OP should have stayed with leaf springs.
This whole thread is such a pain and I wish it would disappear from the main page of the forum, but it keeps getting bumped even though it's WAY off track from the original discussion.
Here are the lessons that I take from this thread.
1. The OP talked smack about leaf springs when he obviously doesn't know squat about suspension dynamics.
2. One experienced forum member tried to relay that information in a nice manner, but it was ignored.
3. The OP decided to spend (waste) money on some aftermarket crap that proved to be just that - crap.
4. We are all now dumber because of this ridiculous thread.
5. The vast majority of the proven fast Corvette racers are still on leaf springs.
6. The OP should have stayed with leaf springs.
Nothing is wasted if people can read and learn from this. It’s been very valuable to me as the ‘other’ main Aldan thread has them painted in a very different light. It’s frankly quite BS - if there is BS to this that forum members have to be guinea pigs to vendors pushing poor products.
Deleting this would only hurt future members. Don’t be so daft. There is still a VERY large separation from leaf springs used on a controlled track surface - read: moslty smooth , to people who deal with tons of bumps mid corner. Each very much so holds their own merits and shouldn’t be a ‘coilovers suck’ thread nor mindset. Frankly I still feel quite the opposite where I don’t much like the charictariatics of the monoleaf. I don’t think they’ve really been tamed outside of modern mag ride and third link suspension arms to combat bushing deflection; both seen in the more composed c7.
The reason for this is on their website I believe.
That is BEYOND goofy. Compression and rebound do different things. Why you would want to adjust compression which is an unsprung weight control on the front, but not rebound which is a sprung weight control on the front, and opposite on the back makes zero sense. People fall into the trap of adjustments a lot, when they don't know how they work or what they do. Rebound is where it's at above all. Compression is important to have decent, too much makes the car just ride poorly and too little makes the tire not stay on the ground. What compression is NOT is a substitute for spring rate.
In addition, if you want to tune things like response and how fast the car will unload the nose when drag racing, you want rebound control adjustments. Matt Miller has made a lot of good statements in this thread too, fwiw.
Now to the magic, or presumed magic of coil-overs. There might well be reasons to make that change. But coil-overs in and of themselves, ignoring the rates, the quality and valving of the damper, etc. aren't magical. And the leaf springs constantly get a bum rep, which amazes me considering what these cars can do even bone stock. Which takes me to the thing that folks claim to see with a change to coil-over.... I'm sure they see a difference, and depending on what they used it might be big. But understand that you are getting a damper/shock change at the time. But again folks don't really get how things work and when two things change at once, they have issues understanding what brought about the changes. If you want coil-overs, that's fine. I deal with lots of them from a lot of different brands. And you might well want to be able to mess with spring rates, which they will do better than trying to change leafs which have fewer options and do cost more. But understand that the car doesn't know what springs are on it and given similar wheel rates between the two you won't see much change. This is not a pickup truck type setup. This isn't an old C3 rear spring setup. Think of the leaf spring like wings on a plane. They flex, and can do so independently on each side, even though they are part of one basic structure.
This whole thread is such a pain and I wish it would disappear from the main page of the forum, but it keeps getting bumped even though it's WAY off track from the original discussion.
Here are the lessons that I take from this thread.
1. The OP talked smack about leaf springs when he obviously doesn't know squat about suspension dynamics.
2. One experienced forum member tried to relay that information in a nice manner, but it was ignored.
3. The OP decided to spend (waste) money on some aftermarket crap that proved to be just that - crap.
4. We are all now dumber because of this ridiculous thread.
5. The vast majority of the proven fast Corvette racers are still on leaf springs.
6. The OP should have stayed with leaf springs.
Here are the lessons I take from this thread
1. Buy cheap stuff and suffer the consequences
(quality of product has nothing to do with leaf v coil argument)
Nothing is wasted if people can read and learn from this. It’s been very valuable to me as the ‘other’ main Aldan thread has them painted in a very different light. It’s frankly quite BS - if there is BS to this that forum members have to be guinea pigs to vendors pushing poor products...There is still a VERY large separation from leaf springs used on a controlled track surface - read: moslty smooth , to people who deal with tons of bumps mid corner. Each very much so holds their own merits and shouldn’t be a ‘coilovers suck’ thread nor mindset. Frankly I still feel quite the opposite where I don’t much like the charictariatics of the monoleaf. I don’t think they’ve really been tamed outside of modern mag ride and third link suspension arms to combat bushing deflection; both seen in the more composed c7.
The problem here is that there literally is no difference in the way that coil springs and leaf springs work in a C4-7, but people persist in posting this bunk as if it's fact. Then, people like the OP are encouraged to spend money to swap to coilovers for absolutely no good reason, and because coilover setups are expensive they end up with awful products like this. For less money, the OP could have installed really nice single-adjustable monotube shocks and realized all the improvements he was looking for. He'd have then had several hundred dollars left in his pocket to spend on something else. This is what happens when people start believing in magic.
Leaf springs work but have major limitations on how much you can set up a car when it comes to different spring rates. Spring rates change the handling dynamic more than other other mechanical body control device in my opinion (springs vs sway bars vs shocks). There is no way a fast driver will be able to dial in his car using the same stock leaf spring rate that runs a street tire versus a Hoosier A7. The traction dynamic between those two tires is so vast that you will be leaving time on the table using the stock spring rates. I come from the school of thought that the spring and spring rate control the cars handling "stiffness", body sway, pitch, yaw, dive, squat, etc. The sway bars are there to "tune" the chassis and fine tune the handling characteristics of the car and the drivers preferences. Sway bars can be used to fine tune for different track conditions that may change hourly. In real race cars they can be adjusted on the fly by the driver as required.
Shocks are ONLY in the equation to control the springs oscillations (leaf, coil, torsion or airbag) to insure that the tire stays in contact with the pavement.....that's it. Once you have a shock that is used to control front dive, sway or has the wrong valving for the spring rate/tire traction coefficient, then the tire is not going to be staying on the ground. There is only one mechanical process that will decide how fast you accelerate, stop, turn and corner.....that is the four patches of tire rubber touching the ground. Nothing else is going to keep the car on the track. The other mechanical components (springs, shocks, sway bars) job is to insure that the tire stays in contact with the ground as much as possible. I am not a believer in shocks that can control body sway, dive under braking, etc. By definition the shock has now become a spring and is increasing the spring rate. But can it do this and control the oscillations of the spring to keep the tire in contact with the pavement? The magnetic shocks and such are great for 90% of the drivers because they will never be able to approach a Corvettes maximum handling potential on the street. They do make the car feel very sporty and race car like at 9/10ths which is way above what us mere mortals can achieve. But that last 10% of performance is where the electronic or magnetic type shocks don't measure up IMO. There is no way to make a street car with street car algorithm programming work at the same level as a very fast driver on sticky tires. Stock cars with the fastest lap record times are not on electronic shocks. But stock Vettes with electronic shocks often are associated with comments like "can't put the power down", "twitchy in corners", etc. These shocks are always an issue when at the "limit" on the track.
Regarding leaf springs, it appears we have even less options for different spring rates than we did a few years ago. With coilovers, you can pretty much change spring rates in 50 lb increments.....cheaply. Does anybody really want to buy multiple leaf springs to try different set ups even if they were available?
The reality is 90% of the buying public puts on coilovers to change the cars ride height and look cool. Those coilover buyers out there are not fast track guys....so these cheap coilovers meet the street driving criteria and probably have a placebo effect on how great the car is handling.
Regarding using cheap coilovers, I went with LG's least expensive coilover option and had them installed by Abel Chevrolet. Amazingly I'm not having ANY of the issues that the Aldan customers are experiencing. I've only done one track day since the install but I can tell you that they do feel better as I get better traction coming out of corners and I don't have any of what I call "kick back" at max cornering when doing corrections or catching a bit of a slide.
Leaf springs work but have major limitations on how much you can set up a car when it comes to different spring rates. Spring rates change the handling dynamic more than other other mechanical body control device in my opinion (springs vs sway bars vs shocks). There is no way a fast driver will be able to dial in his car using the same stock leaf spring rate that runs a street tire versus a Hoosier A7....Regarding leaf springs, it appears we have even less options for different spring rates than we did a few years ago. With coilovers, you can pretty much change spring rates in 50 lb increments.....cheaply. Does anybody really want to buy multiple leaf springs to try different set ups even if they were available?
This is true. It just doesn't apply to the OP's reasons for getting coilovers. He's not racing or tracking the car at all.
The reality is 90% of the buying public puts on coilovers to change the cars ride height and look cool. Those coilover buyers out there are not fast track guys....so these cheap coilovers meet the street driving criteria and probably have a placebo effect on how great the car is handling.
This is probably all true, too. But for those guys who own a C5/6, the stock monoleafs can adjust for ride height also. How are coilovers any better for their needs than the stock springs, which are already bought and paid for?
More importantly in this thread, AFAICT the desire for "changing ride height and looking cool" was not among the OP's reasons for buying coilovers either:
Originally Posted by SVT_Z06
-Occasionally drag
-Want great handling over bumpy roads
-Want the car to track and hug the road
-Do not want to pay over $1300 (I don't road race)
-Removal of leaf springs
-Minimize bump steer
Lb recommendations welcome for all around great road compliance.
Handling is more important than ride height to me.
The bolding is mine. It's indicative of what was discussed later in the thread: the OP has been convinced by webernet mythology that leaf springs are inherently inferior to coil springs. So he's become convinced that his "hop" issue and failure to "hug the road" and deal with bumpy roads well is caused by the fact that his car came with monoleafs instead of coil springs. So he's paid at least several hundred dollars to replace the OE leafs with coil springs.
The reason that's a problem is that the shape of the springs has nothing to do with his complaints about his car's handling. The actual cause is very likely that the OE dampers his Z06 came with are tuned to be less compliant over bumps than he would probably want, the Z06 having been set up by the engineers as a track-oriented car. The solution would have been different shocks, especially ones that are at least single-adjustable (for rebound only). And for less than $1325, he could have done a lot better than Aldans. Actually, he could have done a lot better for around $700-800.
And this is not really the OP's fault. It's the fault of all the ridiculous claims made by so many others on this and other forums (and the press in magazines) about the supposed inferiority of a fiberglass monoleaf spring vs coils. Too many people are spending money for silly parts because they've been told the wrong things about springs over and over. And that is why I think it's important to put actual facts out there every time it comes up, or to put it in your words "Oh boy, here we go."
This whole thread is such a pain and I wish it would disappear from the main page of the forum, but it keeps getting bumped even though it's WAY off track from the original discussion.
Here are the lessons that I take from this thread.
1. The OP talked smack about leaf springs when he obviously doesn't know squat about suspension dynamics.
2. One experienced forum member tried to relay that information in a nice manner, but it was ignored.
3. The OP decided to spend (waste) money on some aftermarket crap that proved to be just that - crap.
4. We are all now dumber because of this ridiculous thread.
5. The vast majority of the proven fast Corvette racers are still on leaf springs.
6. The OP should have stayed with leaf springs.
Only one you may be correct about is #5. And that's cool. Everything else you mention here, you are wrong, and have zero facts to back any of this up. This was all just made up in your head.
BREAKING NEWS !
there was controversy at the recent press announcement by GM and Chevrolet that the new C8 Corvette would be fitted with coil overs. Members of the Leaf spring lovers association (incorporating the anti coil over crowd) who were present at the announcement became quite upset and angry at the news.
One of the members slumped to the floor shouting out loudly "no, no !" He was supported by other members, as a journalist approached he said to the male "but the Corvette Factory race cars have run coil overs in favor of leaf springs for years ?" The male on the floor shouted "it was a Government conspiracy, they took a race car to a warehouse and had a film crew stage the whole thing !"
The spiritual leader of the group loudly proclaimed "Corvette will reap what they sew, I will unleash a Tsunami of 2000 word posts, the likes of which have never been seen !"
It has been rumoured that the group have set up a safe haven compound where the purity of the leaf spring Corvette can be maintained without influence from the outside world.
Members of the group stormed out and were last seen heading towards their compound to begin 'prepping' for this end of world scenario that could threaten their whole belief system.
below, members seen leaving the meeting in their leaf spring vehicle.
Members of the Leaf spring lovers association (incorporating the anti coil over crowd) who were present at the announcement became quite upset and angry at the news.
Doubling down on the straw man argument, eh? To get this more on the nose so you can understand it: there is nobody here who is anti-coilover or a leaf spring lover. Nobody. I dare you find a post where I or anyone else said coil springs are bad. There most definitely are, however, leaf spring haters here, and you are certainly among them.
below, members seen leaving the meeting in their leaf spring vehicle.
Please, do continue to spread misinformation and ad hominem attacks like this. It definitely makes you seem much smarter and level-headed... You are really contributing a lot to this thread.
BREAKING NEWS !
there was controversy at the recent press announcement by GM and Chevrolet that the new C8 Corvette would be fitted with coil overs. Members of the Leaf spring lovers association (incorporating the anti coil over crowd) who were present at the announcement became quite upset and angry at the news.
One of the members slumped to the floor shouting out loudly "no, no !" He was supported by other members, as a journalist approached he said to the male "but the Corvette Factory race cars have run coil overs in favor of leaf springs for years ?" The male on the floor shouted "it was a Government conspiracy, they took a race car to a warehouse and had a film crew stage the whole thing !"
The spiritual leader of the group loudly proclaimed "Corvette will reap what they sew, I will unleash a Tsunami of 2000 word posts, the likes of which have never been seen !"
It has been rumoured that the group have set up a safe haven compound where the purity of the leaf spring Corvette can be maintained without influence from the outside world.
Members of the group stormed out and were last seen heading towards their compound to begin 'prepping' for this end of world scenario that could threaten their whole belief system.
below, members seen leaving the meeting in their leaf spring vehicle.
God I love Aussie humor.....been doing business with companies from Oz for 20 years. Funniest quote I'd heard from one of my manufacturers in Melbourne when we were tackling a mechanical production issue was "You only need to be 3% smarter than what you're working on, you'll beat it every time"....I couldn't argue with that logic, LOL.
So, who will be the first to offer T-shirts with the "LSLA" logo on them to the forum??
01-25-2019, 04:58 PM
You are really contributing a lot to this thread.