TCracingCA

Wanting to document past history of cars prior to my ownership. I am always searching for old SCCA publications, results. I know others out there would like to document histories maybe collectively we could piece info together to help one another.

I have two cars

1st Car
1963 Roadster (former Owner- Cloyde Angell who ran slaloms with the SCCSCC in Southern California from 1965-68, he was the Competition Vice Chairman in the SCCSCC and the WSCC) and member of three local clubs, the car ended up at Lincoln Corvette and was bought and brought back to California and then I purchased it!


2nd Car
1963/64 Roadster (former Owner David Cormany who raced it in the SCCA Southern California region at Riverside, Ontario during 1969-70 and wrecked in 1970, then the car was acquired by Bob Mathias who rebuilt it as a race car. It was sold 1983, and I bought it from that new Owner also in 1983.

C3-R

IS that part of the fun in owning an old race car--researching its history? The log books I have for my car only go back to 1989. I have spoken to one prior owner other than the person I bought the car from. He told me the car was built to run in either the 82 or 83 trans am season. It ran a season and was obsoleted when the tube frame cars came in (in 1984, i think). Thereafter it ran gt1 in SCCA and lateri n group 10 in SVRA. I've tried to contact the two other owners but with no luck. But I will continue trying to contact them.

TCracingCA

Hey C3R, The 75-83 IMSA, Trans Am, GT-1 Vettes are the ultimate Corvettes. These were like the Can-Am warriors of their day. They were pitted against cars like the 935 Turbo Porsches and the Dekon Monza's, BMW's etc.. Every person who wants to modify a 63-82 should look at the extent of development put into these Cars. I wish the Corvette Magazines would run articles on these cars, "like yours". Unfortunately they didn't get the coverage because the majority of them would be on the tail end of the grid against the full on factory supported car makes and the full race shop constructed cars. These cars are fast. The difference between a vintage 63/64 like mine and a full on Trans Am car with multi-link suspensions, Hurst Airhearts, Alcons, Sweet, Dry Sump, Jongbloeds, Tilton, etc. is great but I am quickly closing that gap. The Greenwoods, Porterfield, Sloma, Hanson, etc.. should have gotten more press.

I am going to see how many people respond to my posting and see who is out their and what they are trying to find. You were the first to answer so I thought I should write. I have a whole bunch of the SCCA Sports Car magazines and a bunch of the old Corvette News from that era. They had good coverage of that period when your car competed. I am going to photocopy the articles related to racing and put together a general racing history. I am hoping someone has compiled a history on the internet, but haven't found anything close. I have asked the SCCA if a history file exists. I have talked with Cal Club, the Fabulous 50 club. Some of the racetracks keep histories but I haven't found them to be accessible. The California screamin Book- The Glory Days of Corvette Road Racing stops just short of what I am looking for.

I am actually more interested in the Regional level histories and local club organized events. I have two SCCA log books one from 1966 (Angell) my second car and one from 1969 (D.(ormany) my 1963/4 first car and a 1971 magazine with the cover missing, but these names don't show in the SCCA mags. I have participant plaque that were passed to me when the cars were bought. I would like to recreate the list of events where my cars competed to include the local slalom events like the Corvette LTD Twilight Doubleheader III Beach Party Rallye held on 6/20/64, SideSlide I Riverside 11/21/65, NCSCC Golden State Grandprix II 7/2-3/1966, Sideslide II 5/26/1968, that the one ran with Angell.

I was hoping for similiar lists from California based Corvette Racers and some history on Western United States Regionals from 1963-1984. My interest in the later years would be if I ever get the info out there assembled, I think it should be published. The driver's I named are famous in the Corvette circle or should be. Your car sounds like it should be in there.

I enjoyed Monterey last month and talking to DeLorenzo, Morton, Hooper, Guldstrand, Barker, Currin, Ballard, Noel Park, Reinhart. Had them all sign my program on their car pictures. I wish I would have thought of that on Saturday not Sunday. I missed Jerry Thompson by seconds and a whole bunch of other Corvette guys, and a I would have loved to have had my car out there with them. It having a history makes it more acceptable by the vintage organizations standards than alot of the reconstructed replicas that were invited and run.

I love researching, engineering, driving my car and racing in general. I have so many notebooks full of stuff. I have cut out the tech articles from every Corvette Magazine since the 1960 and have them in notebooks. I have 1000 car models and just about every historical corvette raced in 1/43 scale. I am scratchbuilding a 1/24 replica of the Beach City Corvette Funny Car. I need something to do with all of the spare time we all seem to have. It relaxes me after 10-14 hours days of apartment complex property management. Thanks for the reply and I have read several of your entries in just the three days that I have been on the forum. You have shown up in several of the interesting topics. Compliments to you and hope to hear from you again.

Derek (TCracingCA)

redvetracr

TC,
If you have an SCCA log book it has a number hand written on the cover and if you have the SCCA race car that goes with that log book it has the same number stamped in the roll bar. If you have these things you should have a simple job of documenting your cars wheel to wheel race history. A few points of interest though, not to contradict you but the SCCA has a historian and he has told me the SCCA didn`t start using log books on cars until 71 or 72, so I would love to see some pics of your books dated 1966/1969. Also canyon racing and slalom/solo doesn`t count as wheel to wheel race history. It would not get you an SVRA medallion and probably never get you into a Steve Earle event at Monterey.
...redvetracr

TCracingCA

Hi, REDVETRACR and honestly thanks for the reply, you made me mad but respect your opinion---------
I like the racer crowd because normally unlike with the numbers matching crowd individuals aren't walking around trying to say a bunch of negatives about each others cars or discredit, but I respect your opinion.

The 1966 Log Book is Green and has a handwritten number on the front cover and it says on the cover in small print "Sports Car Club of America" next line larger print NOVICE PERMIT" next line "AND" next line "LOG BOOK" then next below the wording "1966" issued on 5/20/66 by Cont. Bd. Chmn. In about 1968/69 and completed 7 hours and received instructor's rating of "4" across the board except on Comparative Lap times where he got a "3" and it was signed by the Chief Steward. Not to bore anyone, he attended another School session. I will be guarded about the specifics like the individuals name, races, and the book number and the other info that I would not like some thief to obtain who might phony up a car with my car's history. Example their were 20 L-88 corvettes made and now their are about 36. Fact, there are alot of forms of competition and thousands of cars that were raced in all regions. The second log book is Red and has the same format except for the 1969. Since both of these individuals aren't living next door to talk with. My theory is the 1st guy acquired the car to race, car broke, maybe no money to race, wife threatened divorce, so the car ended up on the Dana Chevy lot. Where it was bought by the previous owner to me who had the same dream. He contacted SCCA did his thing for awhile Novice Permit would be the place to start and did it for awhile himself, then it ended up in Slalom stuff and SCCA. In consideration that alot of race cars are driven and used in local events it would not have been strange. If a rule changes or your license expires, is suspended, I could see someone satisfying their racing bug with slaloms and rallies. Also an excellent way to keep your skills sharp. Car has suspension, car will be driven in an event necessitating a suspension.

Also fact. The SCCA did not start the Rollcage numbering policy until the 1970's. The cage was cut out of my car and I only have the main hoop and a few other pieces which I will check for a number, Thank you! Also the pickup points are all still evident were bars were welded to the frame in 2 points in the engine bay, 6 from the cockpit (under dash both sides and just behind the seats to the frame and then connecting back to the frame over the rear wheels).

I thank you for letting me know there is a historian contact. That was the purpose of my forum, you helped me with a fact and gave me information, THANK YOU- because the Scca guy himself didn't have that knowledge to share under a tent at Monterey who didn't know anything but selling the current SCCA paper. Half of the people I run across try to come across as some sort of expert and actually who are they?, who are you? to be the final authority on the subject, but I respect your opinion and as my forum indicated, I am searching for answers. I am looking for information.

As for the Solo I and Solo II, alot of those guys would kick the scrap out of alot of professionals walking the planet. There is alot of talent there. There is alot of intelligent people and who says operating a car takes some God ordained ability. I saw Stirling Moss plow through a number of guys in turn one of the Historics, what Brain Fade? Strike me dead if I am wrong, but there is no way I would have pulled that move. Most people competing in the SCCA Solo I and II can walk, talk and even chew gum. I think it all comes down to how much money and whether you get the breaks. I would say Sarah Fischer, must be a better driver than you because she RACED AT INDY?, I would rather give my keys to Michelle Mouton than my own Father!

The Historics on a non Corvette year which is every year except 2002. They are real selective in the cars they pick. They make some exceptions to bring cars in for the featured Marque. Hell there were three races that featured Corvette's at Monterey and I thoroughly enjoyed them. It was good to talk to Currin and ask him for one wish, BEAT THE COBRA and he looked me dead in the eye and said that the COBRA was a fast car and he had reservations. Damn if he wasn't putting it to the guy, he had the Cobra beat and Archer did a Stirling Moss and made a big mistake and took him out. I have the whole thing on tape and will be calling Mr. Currin as soon as I convert it to VHS and sending him a copy. There were alot of cars there racing that were street cars turned into race cars and recently. Also the caliber of historic vehicles (Corvette's) were unbelievable. The History parked there that weekend. If you didn't attend, you should probably buy a Ford Mustang (no offense). It was like Mecca but the object of worship was the Corvette. I talked to one guy and I don't want to name names but he told me 3 years ago he converted the car I was looking at from a street car that had no racing history at all.

I enjoyed the races and honestly would like to participate. My goal is to have fun. The Canyon Racing, try it. It takes more nerve to run on the edge of cliffs, no big pea gravel runoffs to save your butt, no flag men to wave when someone lays down oil, usually at night which really takes split second reflexes and precision (have you ever raced at night? Your car is outrunning the 130Watt H4's and you don't have a rally instructing co-driver telling you to turn, talk about on edge, what a thrill. Additionally I have been on tracks- Willowsprings, Riverside, Laguna Seca, and did the Bondurant school in 1980 at Sears Point. Lately I have driven Buttonwillow, and on Fontana's new road course for some parade laps during the HSR Vintage Races earlier this summer. I was in the Blue 68 with the plexiglass light covers, open headers directly behind the Parnelli Jones lettered 1967 Burgandy Corvette Roadster, the third car back from the pace car during the lunch time laps. I didn't get that special honor by being a complete idiot leading out the other Vette's and the Ferrari's and Corral Cars. I was also on the track at Willow Springs on March 10th at the Corvette Marque event in the same car passing all of the C4's and C5's including two of the new Z06's and I didn't have the R1's on either but street BFG's because the car was driven up in a convey which included better cars than Road and Track usually assembles. Would you like to see the video. On the track even had a slow 928 GT blow up in front of me (oil) as I closed to pass. Granted these were not competition laps. Yes I have raced wheel to wheel (Superbike Series for years, Motocross for years, my brother works at Dromo One and we go out with the racing carts to compete. Enough said. Please be positive. Not everyone is trying to pull one over on everyone. If I offended someones intelligence, I am sorry. Just don't answer my forums and I will stay out of any you write if we disagree. P.S. the aluminum block, heads, Rod 6 speed, etc. would have to come out of the car to go vintage racing unless I feel like racing with the Dekon Monza's, and Prototype cars. I am curious to know who you are. I would be glad to see if I have info on races your car has competed in, standings, etc.. let me know. Thanks best wishes.

redvetracr

TC,
You asked a simple to answer question and I answered it!! If you don`t like the answers thats too bad BUT it`s REALITY!! Cars racing through canyons at night or on parking lots around cones are NOT considered "historic race cars". And anyone with $75 or so can track tour at lunch. I think what you have is a "drivers log" and NOT a "log book" it proves that a driver attended a specific race, not a car, you will need to find grid sheets, the actual person or pictures of the car on the track to prove your cars history. You don`t need to prove it to me as I don`t care but the SVRA will (at least at Watkins Glen,Mid-Ohio& VIR) and Steve Earle (Monterey) certainly will and of course if you ever want to sell it (as a historic race car) the first question you will be asked is "how old is the log book". I said the SCCA has a historian, I never said he could help you, the last time I talked with him he wanted $$$ to start a search, a search through two semi loads of documents. The guys at Monterey are already in!! They either have historic racers (bought their way in) or are friends of Earle or in the case of one of the famous people (that you met) he was racing a car built in the last 5 years or so but his name and/or his (long) association with GM got him in. I also know two seperate drivers who have been to Monterey and have told me how Steve Earle got up at his drivers meetings and reported the race results for 1-2-3 place BEFORE THE RACE, yes some of the races there have been FIXED, it is common knowledge (and I live in the midwest!!). Where was I ?? you ask, I was invited to send in an entry I also have an invitation to two GM/Chevrolet parties but while my car has the "race" history and the "pedigree" it too has been modified (shaft rockers/dry sump/lightweight body, etc.) and seeing how the race might not of been a "real race" I stayed home, I would much rather race where I KNOW the out come is NOT FIXED. Who am I you ask?? I am the owner/driver of the third car built by the Owens-Corning fiberglass racing team and I have the "chain of ownership" right back to Tony Delorenzo, I am someone who has done his homework and knows what it takes to obtain a cars "history". I am sorry you don`t like my answers but I didn`t make the rules I only have to live (and race) by them.
...redvetracr

C3-R

TC

I am also interested in the history of race cars, however, like fine art work (any really anything else with extraordinary value) you always have to beware of fakes and posers. When I began to look for a vette racer, I spoke to a guy who claimed to have a former L88 car that was owned and/or raced by John Paul. While the car looked interesting and was not priced like an L88 there was absolutely no back-up data to support the claims of the seller.

The Race Vette I ended up buying while not a "historic" racer has an interesting history that I am slowly piecing together. To the extent you have some information regarding the 1980-84 trans am season stats, I'd be interested in taking a look at that information.

I also commend your enthusiasm and ambition with creating a "data base" for race cars through the articles and other periodicals you have collected through the years. Such a resource will be unvaluable as an additional source for those looking to verify a potential vette racer acquisition. I know I would have loved to have such a source available when I was looking.

As for my car, it was built by a race shop in connecticut which now builds Busch North cars. The front end is totally modified ala Nascar type equipment. About 1ft past the firewall the frame was cut and a box tubing was welded so that the car would have proper pickup point for Afco tube a-arms, rack and pinion and coilovers.

The rear suspension uses the stock fiberglass spring however it is a 4 link suspension with parallel trailing arms.

I have a feeling judging by the 2 log boks I do have that the car was really an east coast car. It raced at Limerock, Watkins Glen, Pocono, Mid Ohio, NHIR, and Bridgehampton.

Prior to buying the car I spoke to a very well known east coast vette vintage racer to see if he knew the car I was looking at. Not only did he know the car, but he encouraged me to buy it because he believed that it was a terrific race car that was well set-up. That was a nice vote of confidence. After I bought it I ended up speaking to the prior owner who also was very complimentary about the car. These were good things to hear.

I bought the car to run in open track events at least for the time being since I am still a novice and am trying to get seat time. Not only do I lack the skill at the moment but also the finances to actually "race" the car in competition.

At the moment the car is on stands and partially disassembled as I am in the process checking the suspension. I am hopeful that the car will be ready to roll in April for the 1st open track event.

redvetracr

C3-R,
If the L-88/ John Paul car you refered to was the one on ebay a while back being sold by Melrose t-tops a friend of mine bought it and claims he has proof it was raced pre`73, (I didn`t say L-88 or JP proof, just proof!!). For some strange reason it was listed on ebay for $13K (NO reserve) and this guy paid $21???????? The only drawback to a car like yours is what it has to race against, SVRA group 10 (wings&slicks), HSR (porsches with wings& slicks) or SCCA GT-1 (Riley-Scott, Weavers, Hoerrs,etc). BUT as long as your having fun thats all that really counts!! ...redvetracr

C3-R

RedVet

That was the car indeed. I recall the reserve was 15K. I spoke with Dave Weihl (sp) a few times and met him at Carlisle i think in the fall of 2000. I passed on the car "Jessie" b/c it had been sitting a long time with racing ( i think 10 yrs or so). Also I didn't know then what I know now. That being said, the car definitely peaked my interest to the point that I almost travelled to Melrose in Chicago from NJ to see it. But in the end it just didn't work out. In fact, I recall Dave sent me a number of pics of the car at Daytona and sebring i believe. However, when I was talking to him about the car I don't think he ever mentioned any log books.

Has your friend rebuilt/run "Jesse"? I'd love to hear an update on the car.

Believe me, I know the downfall of my car. It will end up racing in Group 10 in SVRA against some wild cars. However, I am only interested, at this point in time, in having fun. I believe my car will satisfy that itch.

redvetracr

C3-R,
The car "Jessie" is unfinished, the guy and his wife just adopted a baby so they are quite busy!! I think he got some "history" help from Jack Woherle (SVRA). I have NOT seen or heard of his receiving a "medallion" or even a "letter of eligability" from the SVRA but as I have been told the car did race before`73. ...redvetracr

C3-R

Redvet

That's interesting to know since I don't believe Dave Wiehle could, at least at the time I was dealing with him regarding "Jessie" could verify the cars competition history at least with a level of cerrtainty I was looking for. He had some evidence but nothing that I would have considered dispositive on the issue. However, if SVRA provides it with eligibility, I guess that's the only determination that matters. Did your friend do research on his own prior to buying the car? I remember asking Dave for the previous owners names to reach out to them while we were discussing the transaction and he was hesitant to give them to me. I guess I lost interest thereafter.

Believe me, I know how busy kids can keep you, a toddler and an infant here. That's why it's taking me so long to get my car ready!!!

redvetracr

C3-R,
I will see the new owner in a couple of weeks at Road America and ask but as I remember Jack Woherle found some pictures but don`t quote me on it. He is and continues to be a very helpful guy. btw do you know of any "old" race cars (or guys with old race parts)in your "neck of the woods"?? If you do please e-mail me directly!! redvetracr@msn.com

C3-R

Redvet:

You have mail. BTW, I had a conversation with Chip Miller of Carlisle Productions about Jessie. Interestingly, Dave Wiehle offered the car to Chip when he was trying to sell it. Chip passed on it b/c he could not verify its origin even with the resources he has in the vette biz. I just thought it interesting that when an unusual vette comes up for sale all vette people have their sources and spies out there and they always seem to get 1st crack at the cars. Its alot like IPO's. The only people offered the really lucrative ones are the Martha Stewart's of the world.

TCracingCA

Delorenzo cars were great. The one registry is asking for any vette in any type of competition to submit history whether that be Solo, SCCA, or the Tibet GP. I can already race in the HSR, VARA wants a little more, the HMSA haven't contacted them or displayed to them what I have. If the car looks and fits into their ideal of what they would want and connections do help, you could run. As I get older I have serious reservations about running canyons. Dangerous. The vintage events run at 6/10 or 7/10 of the cars potential. A few are really racing. Sounds interesting because it is basically just driving fast and having fun with friends or people with similiar interests. For someone to weld a cage into the car, needed one for something. Full cages were not required in 1966 or 1969. I received a bunch of slalom plaques with the car that were in the owner's handbook. A full cage has never been needed for SCCA cone courses so that leads me to believe something else more was done with the car. I love your car. Great car. It should have been at Monterey just because it belonged there. I don't think vintage racing is the forum for aggressive competition, at Willow Springs too many were smashed up. Our family did the Sprint cars for a few years at ASCOT etc. and it got pricey. Always buying something or fixing something. Thank you for your responses.

TCracingCA

From TC,
I believe the Monterey's and Goodwoods should only allow cars that competed Nationally, not Regional stuff and not SCCA cones. But I will immediately attempt to become Steve Earle's new best friend as you suggest. Thanks

redvetracr

TC,
Do you think you saw two Owens-Corning cars at Monterey???????

redvetracr

because you DID NOT the car Delorenzo was driving was built in the last few years !!

bjm

The car Tony was driving was built about 15yrs agoish buy one of his old crew members, it just is painted like the OC cars. It probably has almost as many real parts as the two "real' team cars do though. Also, only one of the "team" OC cars was an L88, not including the 67 which was. One was a made up car out of parts the other was an L88. It is a nice car but not a real OC car. Also, cages were not required till much later than 69. There were many cars running with hoops up until at least 72. They are just better protection and better for overall chassis stiffness.

I think there is a corvette race car registry on procrastination racing. You would have to do a search on Yahoo.

redvetracr

Brian,
Your not really buying that BS story about Seifert saving a frame (that wasn`t good enough to use 30 years ago BUT was good enough to save) for 30 years are you?? If I hadn`t come along he would of called his car the third car built MINE!! That is except for the fact that Bud Hickey`s lawyer sent a letter up to Michigan threatening a law suit!! HN

PS: Flying in for R/A ??

TCracingCA

From TC (Derek)
To: Greg 1980 Corvette GT1

Provide me with your own personal email and when I start piecing everything together, I will contact you. Some of the SCCA books have standings for all regions. If someone knows the Driver, then they might be able to piece together if they had every issue, how the season went with the season schedule. I have been looking for the earlier information 1966 to 1984 because on the WestCoast (Riverside) to make full grids, they combined Groups- A production and B production and even some of the modified classes. In these races, there were very few of the 63-67 Body style cars and they were fairly wild. My car is flared just like the #28 Rollie car!, the frame completed welded, gusseted, J-56 disk brakes (proportioning valve, flex reinforcer on caliper mount bracket front, extra unknown holes drilled around the gas tank area?? Fuel cell brackets??? And I have ATL pieces.

PS following the L88 conversation was interesting. Compliments to Redvetr in his extensive knowledge and connections (friends) in the business.

Message for Redvetr: It is disturbing to here about individuals faking a famous car. I was talking to the gentleman who owned the flip top Cobra and he was telling me about someone who has claimed ownership of the real one and he is in a fight. Luckily the Registry for the Cobra's recognizes his car as the real one. A registry is a good idea. I contacted the Procrastination people but never got a response back. The website didn't seem to be updated. When I get more info, I will try again. Also I didn't talk to the driver's with the Delorenzo car's about the car. Just talked about driving and racing stories. A few I was just able to get their signatures because of the busy day. Both of those cars were great looking cars. Just like the James Dean porsche story. About 4 people claim to have that car and they make those claims because one has the original engine in his, the other claims the original body, the other claims the original frame, and the last claims to have some Ownership papers. I am glad they aren't trying to register their cars in the same state because they would probably drive the DMV crazy. I have a picture of three corvette frames sitting together. The caption claimed a restoration was in progress on three very famous cars. It is all crazy. The guy who was claiming a real Greenwood race car at Monterey Sports Car auction the previous year buying it for about 40plus K, then it crossed the auction block w/o reserve at 24k??? Wow!!! Something must have been sour. Conversations with Doug Hooper, the #119 Riverside car has to be out there? It would be nice to locate that car because it was the first Sting Ray to win a major competition. Lastly, I didn't buy my car as an investiment. It won't be sold. The two remaining vettes in the family are long time family members.

Anyone have any Finish Line magazines. Good racing coverage. Found two of these magazines. The grid info and pictures and finish results were excellent. Anyone know how long and during what years this magazine was published.



The Dana Frame I have and shown is of the later vintage 1968/69 cars. This is the only late year frame, that I have ever seen. The earlier ones have the ears! And I pictured the 1966 Cloyde Angell log book (novice). Also the car might have ran one actual race, but not with Angell driving!

Also here is the Don Steve's Chevrolet frame that I have.

Then recently I obtained the Pylon magazines and then I acquired the early picture of my car!. Thus it looks like Angell started down the path to enter formally into SCCA racing, but might not have ever ran a race (still being researched!). So I have two things instead of one, that connect him to owning my car (our car!). The other is his 1965 registration card from the good ole California DMV.

I am going to keep the paperwork and specifics on the log books private and that information unphotographed to keep someone from making a phony car! I would think it would be too hard to recreate the plaques or make a flag, or a license plate, so I hope I am safe sharing those photos!

Thus I am still not done, but I am close and still working on the history!

Thanks everyone.