tytek

The first time I was a passanger on a track with someone who was left foot braking (Danny Popp) I was simply amazed by absolutely zero lag between full on power and full on braking. It caught me by surprise, because there was no transition; it was instant. I became a believer that when fighting for every fraction of a second (time trials), this technique has no equals in my mind. Getting good at it is another story...

Since I only do HPDEs at the moment, it is not a skill I must possess. But I still want to utilize it one day. Thus this thread

tytek

A downshift, by definition, involves slowing down (braking zone), so it will always cost time. If you were accelerating, you would be upshifting. By accomplishing a smooth heel/toe gear reduction, it makes you ready to get back on the power at the peak powerband once you hit the apex. No other way around it.

krisa9977

Don't brake then, if you're thinking that braking cost time. But don't forget to press reset button after that

SouthernSon

Well, brake/blip or heel/toe is right foot braking as opposed to left foot braking. Where did I not understand the premise of the thread? You know, to expound on the 'versus' further, I might add that the first RT sweeper at the new NCM MSP (T6 ? ) might be a great place to left foot brake before entry, floating or applying throttle and then, right before the following hard RT, downshift two gears by Brake/Blip with right foot while threshold braking.

tytek

As you know, I am considering doing the NCM track day in April with Bill's crew, but need to make sure the car is shaken down at the end of March, after its transformation over the winter. Are you going to drive or work the event? Or both?

SouthernSon

I'll be there to instruct the green group and ride along with anyone else in the other groups that request it. I'll be there all three days so should be plenty of time to show you the track, if you like. I was lucky enough last year, since it opened, to spend several days driving it including a race event there.

tytek

Due to some prior commitments over the weekend, I am not sure if I can run for more than just a day (Friday). Do you think that one day would be sufficient to learn the track, or should I try to do two days (three won't happen )?

SouthernSon

It is a technical track and, therefore, although you show excellent car control in the video at Putnam, you may not be able to appreciate the complete fun factor until the second day. Not saying you won't enjoy only one day but the second day will more than likely be much more fun, more so than any other track I have run except maybe for VIR. It took two days for things to get really fun at VIR, also. Sign up for yellow because you can do a lot of passing in turns.

troyguitar

You're comparing downshifting and right foot braking to what... lugging the motor and left foot braking?

Right foot vs left foot implies that we're talking about a scenario where there is an actual choice to be made between the two - NOT when a downshift must be performed.

In that scenario, left foot >> right foot. There's a reason real race cars are set up that way.

Painrace

You would be very wise to take several rides with Arte to learn the track and his techniques. He knows and is a very good driver. He will be in demand. Riding with a 70 year old man (me) not so much!

Jim

SouthernSon

Ha! Jim will be there with an honest supercar and decades of racing experience. He is the one that will be in high demand!

Captain Buddha

Troy - speaking only for those that use a dog-ring gearbox (ie - the Jericho in my stock car)..., what I do: left foot braking while right foot is blipping throttle while downshifting.

moespeeds

A very fast GTO racer suggested I start learning this a few years back, so about 2 years ago over the winter I started left foot braking in my Suburban. By the end of the winter it was second nature, and I started doing it in the C5 race car on corners where I don't have to downshift. It worked well and I got the hang of it, but where it really shines is in the GTA stock car I now race. After half a season in that thing, only braking with my left foot, I'd say it's an incredibly useful technique. If you look at your acceleration vs deceleration on a simple line graph, there will be a flat spot at the top of each peak where you transition from brake to throttle. With left foot braking, you mostly eliminate this, as well as keep the car more settled on initial acceleration and mid corner, and there is time there. I also find myself trail braking far more than I ever did in the vette, whether this is just me getting better or a function of the left foot who knows. Having said all that, if I jumped back into a vette tomorrow, I'd left foot brake for sure if there was no downshift involved.

Now a plug for GTA Stock cars, I absolutely love it! It's a brute to drive, but the harder you push the better it gets. I'm putting in a new engine over the winter, and last night , working alone for a very casual 4 hours, I had the whole driveline, transmission, and engine prepped to pull. Just 4 more bolts and it will lift right out. Faster than a vette, cheaper, and easier to work on. What more could you ask?



How's that for room to work?

SouthernSon

And that is where I need to work on technique. It would be nice to have complete control of suspension loading with simultaneous braking and throttle to settle the rear while feeling confident going deep and trail braking. ! I find myself practicing in my DD's, too, but I need more practice.

Captain Buddha

moe - from Day 1 with my GTA I was instructed/taught to left foot brake...first few laps were really uncomfortable but I picked it up really quick...definitely the way to do it, especially in a GTA car! You've gotta get it rotated around...trail braking makes a huge difference...and, like you, I transferred the skillset I learned there to vettes, miatas, etc. for track days.

And yes, another plug for the GTA!

heavychevy

Everyone does not have to be right. There is more than one way to get around a track quickly. With that being said a championship Grand Am driver who has earned his way into the sport told me there is a part of a turn where you are using 100% of the grip of the tires to corner and that is enough time for your foot to get back to gas. Plus going straight to throttle causes more of a balance shift and weight transfer than lifting the brake alone. You can also lift off the brake earlier and carry more entry speed to offset the 1 mph lost due to RFB.

PushinTheLimit

I had the pleasure of driving Jim's car at Putnam Park about 3 years ago. And he was telling me about his technique and I was skeptical at first because I always did the heel/toe in my car and felt comfortable doing it during races. I tried my way first in his car and I just couldn't get it to be smooth at all. So I tried the way Jim described earlier in this thread and wow, it was so smooth. I was able to brake later, shift into that "neutral" zone and back on the gas and still turn decent laps. It wasn't as fast as his laps, but it worked well in his car.

Bill32

Something faster and even easier to work on?

Seriously though, once you start working on tube frame race cars, you can appreciate how much easier it is. Prepping street cars isn't that much fun.

I like working on GT/Stock type cars but even better are the cars where you can pick up a 16 inch slick with one hand to put it on the car.

Captain Buddha

It's kind of hard to keep your "inner redneck" in check with a formula car though!

Serious question - how big of a lardbutt can you get in one of those formula cars? They do look fun / FAST!! Moses and his crew based at Cresson keep on tempting me with FM but it looks a little cramped to me!

Bill32

I got my inner redneck crewed and drove some 1990's Nascar's, a friend has a 1997 tube frame GT1 Camaro, one of easiest cars to drive I've ever been in.

I've never been a big fan of Formula Mazda's, you should try a Formula SCCA, faster and easy to drive, roomier cockpit.

Formula cars are a bit claustrophobic the first time you get in one, that goes away in one lap. The owner of the Atlantic above is 6'2" and 230lbs. Tight fit but no problems. I have to swap seats to drive the car. It takes about 12 hours to just fit the driver to the car including pouring a bead seat. The pedal location and everything else is adjustable. You get used to having your shoulders tight against the frame tubes (with 1/2 in.,SFI padding). With the right seat, your body doesn't even shift 1/4 in. in the corners.

That Atlantic rocks, 5 speed sequential, left foot braking, obviously no clutch use. Extreme downforce because it has tunnels generating downforce besides the wings. In a 1150 car, we run 1000lb springs front and 1500 rear.

0-60mph in 2.8 sec. Lap times at Sears, in a GTA: 1:39, in this car 1:29.
But a 1:39 at Sears Point in a GTA is damn, damn fast.