bags142

I have a 99 FRC with 76k miles and I own it. I have done lots of track days in it and really like the car. I drive it on the street about 9000 miles a year. I have brake cooling ducts, new shocks, upgraded sway bars, headers, intake, spare track wheels, and a trailer I tow. I am at the point of buying 2 fixed back seats, harness bar, 2 harnesses, HANS, oil cooler, and a few other items. Total of all this is about $2800. With future mods of suspension and anything I break.

The question is do I sell my FRC ( I think I can get $14k for it) and buy an already built track car (e36 bmw maybe) with seats, harness, maybe even a cage for $11k?

Whatever I buy, it still needs to be streetable, I drive to track events. Tow rig in ~2 years may be an option but not now. And I have a DD, so this is the 2nd/fun car.

I am NOT planning on running R tires or scrubs... I am planning on running sticky street tires on any car. r-comps/scrubs add more cost to the car due to the problems they cause, so just keep it simple with street tires.

I am 39 and plan on doing hpde's for the next 5+ years. So I am just trying to be realistic on how much money to set on fire. And see if maybe the cheaper/better way to do this is NOT in a vette. The upsides are I know my car and have done ALL the wrenching on it and I think it is solid. A new car could cost me lots of headaches and possibly lots of money if it has a mechanical failure in the near future.

I am sure I am not the 1st person to think about this so I figured I would ask and see what opinions are and see what others have done.

TIA!

Bags

Apocolipse

Just keep er. Like you said the new car could be a bag of worms.

rfn026

Keep it. You're looking down a long slippery slope. First, the car, then the trailer, and finally a tow truck. All three items will take work and money. With the FRC you joust drive to the track and have fun.

I know all of this because I went down that slope you're looking at. My goals are to get back to a car that can be driven to the track and back how at the end of the day.

Richard Newton

argonaut

What makes you think a BMW will be cheaper to run, especially one that cost ~11K. I've known more than one guy who went down the same path thinking they were getting into something cheaper to run and maintain only to end up with someone elses problem and running costs a lot higher than they thought.

In the under 14K range (since thats where you are at now) there are cars with lower running costs than the Vette to be sure - Miata, Honda, Volkswagon come to mind - but they have a significantly different performance envelope :-). Measured in bang per buck its really hard to beat the C5.

LateBreak

Keep the Vette and be mindful of what you spend your money on in terms of how it affects your budget. It sounds like you're on the right track in terms of tire choice. I just got home from a 15 hour endurance race at MAM with my C5 (depowered with a 4.8) and am completely impressed with how the car ran, handled, and used consumables.

I ran Dunlop Direzza Z1's (no longer available, but they have a new one coming out) and they lasted the whole race without falling off for speed. The front tires are almost shot, but the rears still have 6-7 hours in them.

Brake-wise, I have C6 base calipers with DRM SS pistons and braided lines, still no ducts installed but I'll have them on for our next race. I ran Raybestos ST43 pads and they're amazing, this car ran 6 hours in the rain at BIR in May, 2 hours in practice at MAM on Saturday, and 15 hours in dry racing conditions at MAM. After all this, the front pads still appear to have about 50% life remaining, rears are 75%. For about $400 per full set, the brake cost is extremely reasonable. No need to run anything better than white box parts-store rotors, mine are still in great shape with this combination, and they're only $30 each.

Fuel use with the 4.8 came in at 10.24 gallons per hour, your stock LS1 might be a bit more. That said, your stock motor is stout, spend money on cooling for the oil, trans, diff and skip modding the motor except for maybe an oil catch can. It sounds like this is your plan, so again, you're heading in the right direction.

Shocks: Pick up some DRM revalved Bilsteins when they become available again. Great bang-for-buck and will transform the car.

Honestly, the cars that beat me this weekend were a BMW E36 and a Porsche Boxster. We were dead even for lap times, but they did slightly better on fuel consumption and their pit stops were much better than ours. Both were fantastic cars and well-prepped, but guys from both teams were over to take pictures of the Vette and talk about wanting to drive it. I track my buddy's E36 a few times a summer and it's a great car, but I prefer driving the Vette as an overall experience.

Socko

I think about this stuff regularly as well. Trying to keep consumable and wear and tear down, i have limited myself to street tires as well.

I agree having done plenty of work on the car myself, i know its fairly sorted and its a large financial risk getting into something different to come out 3k ahead. No matter what i bought i assume i would end up spending 3k on and it would wash even to run a car that isn't as good.

My take is that nothing in the 20k or less range will be as streetable and as trackable simultaneously as a vette. Sure you could buy a miata for 5k thats sorted and have no consumable cost but that's cause they are slow and not very interesting to drive imo. I think if you get into a caged car it will likely have coilovers and be unplesant on the road.

I like the comment "how much money to set on fire" as it fits so perfectly. I drove a brz on track, more or less the same thing as a miata. It was so boring i just pulled in after 3-4 laps. My concern would be, now that I am pretty used to, and capable of, pushing the vette to 8 or 9 10ths. Finding something enjoyable for less would be hard.

I only run hpde, i am not competitive enough to invest enough to w2w. I run in intermediate groups so i still have a number of seconds to pick up anywhere but with splits my times are reasonable. I run 40 psi in my fronts to save tires and generally shift before 6k on my z06. So It is possible I am more casual than you are, but i feel as though my long term reliability should be ok and the car is just so great on track and on the street i couldn't trade it for something else for the same money much less, less money.

If you figure out a viable solution let us know. I am not a rich guy my track time is limited by c5 consumable costs without a doubt. I would be willing to change cars if i could figure out a way to do it and have more fun. I run 4-6 days a year, sure in a miata i could run 10 for the same cost, but I dont know know that i would be interested in running 10 in general, and really don't know that i would want to run 1 in a miata, lol.

bags142

Hmm.. well that is good to know! The tow rig and trailer aspect seem to be more than I want.

I agree.. I used the E36 M just as an example... I don't wana vert or I would look at an s2000 lol.

But, the c5 is HARD to beat!

I want RWD and a decent amount of power. An e36 325/328 might work as well... I just want a fun car that I can take to the track and enjoy. I am not agressive enough to be the fastest person out there, but I ain't the slowest either..lol


Thanks for the feedback.. I went with the bilstein sports due to cost and lifetime warranty. I am looking at going with poly bushings after next year due to cost as well.

Honestly, I am having more fun than I ever thought I would with hpde's.. I only do 4-6 events a year... but, I look forward to those events each year. I am really just trying to make sure I am attempting to be reasonable about the cost of it. I ain't gonna stop, so I wanna control the bleeding as best as possible.

And reading and thinking here, it seems I might be doing just that.

great suppport group!


This statement is so close to my thoughts, I could have typed it out. LOL

I agree, when I drive my vete to work or out of town, I still enjoy it and smile while driving it. It's not as fun on the street as the track, but it's not horrid on the street and I can enjoy it in stop and go traffic, and I really want to keep that aspect if possible.

Hmm.. seems like I came to the wrong place if I wanted to switch! hahahaha

Thanks for all the input, I am grateful for the honest feedback. It seems I am thinking and asking the correct questions.

troyguitar

The C5 seems to be the absolute best bang for the buck street/track car in my opinion - that is why I bought one myself.

A modded Miata or MR2-Spyder are the only things I can really think of that might offer as much fun for lower long term running costs, but my guess is that they would end up costing similar amounts of money in the end.

I keep thinking I'd like to put the 2ZZ-GE engine and 6-speed from my Pontiac Vibe GT into an MR2 Spyder with a few mods and turn one of those into a track car, it would be completely different from the Corvette but possibly more fun. ~2200 lbs car with mid engine making ~200 rwhp with a 9000 RPM redline and 5:1 gears for constant shifting like a bike.



That project would probably still end up costing $20k total though and running slower than my C5Z on most tracks.

sleeperstyle

doing a few days a year, less than 10, the vette is a great car imho.. the consumables won't kill you, its fast and fun to track. they can be great cars

well i have been doing 20-30 days a year now.. the consumables are really costing me and this is all on street tires, hpde's only. the car is becomming less reliable as it gets worn from countless track miles, and honestly to make one reliable to track you need to spend a couple thousand to begin with.. saftey equip, cooling mods, suspension... you can drop 10k$ without blinking an eye. the "good" brakes for the car are 2500$-3000$ just for fronts.. they are NOT cheap to track, i don't care what anybody says.

i have considered a cheaper car to track with, brz or e36 came to mind a few times. i know both are very easy on consumables and fun to drive.

tytek

Stick with the Vette. It is hard to find anything faster for this kind of money for doing HPDE 5-7 times per year.

And don't look at e-36 325/328 cars. They are not that fast. I matched the time of my instructor's gutted, caged e-36 325i that was running on R6 slicks at Mid-Ohio on my first day out there in a C5Z with 390whp on crappy street tires (Wide Ovals).

A buddy of mine has a E-46 M3 and it is a great car. But he has more money in it than I have in my other C5Z that is track prepped (no cage). And he is a couple of seconds slower per lap (both on street tires), even though he is a better driver with more experience.

For fast lap times at a reasonable cost, the C5 is a bargain. It is not easy to master, and I certainly have tons more to learn, and a lot more time to shave per lap, but if you like being competitive, even in HPDE, you had found the right car. And you have plenty of opportunity to grow into it, it is so challenging to drive at the limit.

Sticking to a budget is what is critical. I need to do a better job at that. With the Corvette, it is easy to drop some serious coin on upgrades and such. Not even talking about track day expenses...

A miata or s2000 would be good choices if you are on a budget - they are both very sensible track machines, but you will peak in those quickly and it won't be easy to improve your lap times much once you do.

Soloontario

I have competed in various time attack type series in a Camaro with sig mods and friends have done so in various Mustangs. I now run in a C5Z and although I have not had the success I have had in my Camaros, I am thoroughly enjoying my 'Vette and suggest you keep yours.

All of these cars are street driven yet can compete in a much more intense environment than HPDE but don't have the expense of running wheel to wheel. In Canada, we use the Mobil 1 Time-attack series ( www.time-attack.ca ) but in your area I think your best bet would be through NASA.

There is no way that a BMW will end up being cheaper and although they can be very fast, it costs a lot of money to make them that way. Miatas are cheap and fun but not fast. S2000s are faster but also have a smaller aftermarket.

jcsperson

I'm getting into the upper 140s at VIR in a C5 with no cage, stock calipers and rotors, and stock restraints. As my skills increase I can see that I'm near that point that how fast I'm willing to go on the track is seriously constrained by my lack of safety equipment. The next step should be a full cage, seat and fire suppression, but that's pretty expensive and then you no longer really have a street car. Also, consumables are expensive.

I'm considering something like this:



I think most of us would be a lot more comfortable with this around us:



Consumables are less expensive than for a Corvette. Sure, you'd have to buy a truck and trailer, but if you have a major mechanical problem, you've got a ride home. I've used the AAA method of getting my Corvette home from the track and that was no fun.

troyguitar

Buying a reasonable truck and trailer would wipe out a 4-6 HPDE's per year budget for like 5+ years.

Tires and brake pads are the only things that cost a lot of money for a C5 driving to and from the track, and even tires can be done more cheaply if you are willing to run 17x9.5's all around with 275/40/17's like Toyo RA1 that last quite awhile. There's no real need to run huge tires if you're not racing.

jcsperson

My DD is due for replacement pretty soon anyway and it will be replaced with a truck. A used trailer isn't too expensive. It's not the cheapest route, but the one that appeals to me.

tytek

A former ASA or GTA car is undoubtedly the best value in lap times vs. cost. They also, like mentioned above, have all the safety systems in place already. The downside is that they are no longer streetable. They also don't have ABS, and I like that as a safety net, although it did bite me in the *** last time at the track, when the whole system failed and my rears locked up unexpectedly. Many of the ASA/GTA cars also don't have power steering or power brakes. They do demand a lot out a their drivers, from what I heard/read, but also make for much purer driving experience.

I am in the same position as jcsperson, where my speeds are getting up there (skill, not as much), and the lack a full racing cage is starting to worry me - racing seat and harness with a HANS device can only do so much. When something goes wrong (not if), I'd like to have the comfort of knowing that I have protected my fat *** as best as possible, with a cage, fire suppression system, etc. But, once you cage a C5, it no longer really allows for street driving, at least not without a helmet on - and who wants to do that.

So, this begs a questions... isn't it smarter to give up the Vette prior to throwing all that money at it, and, instead making switch to a cheaper to run former NASCAR rig? Makes me wonder, that's for sure...

I already have a tow vehicle and a car hauler that I use to tow the C5Z with, so I treat all that as sunk cost at this point.

bags142

That looks like a HOOT.. but, not really streetable and NOT cheaper!




Yes.. I am keeping mods low budget for a reason... safety, however, is not one I want to low budget anymore. And thus here I am



Thanks for all the info. I agree, c5 is hard to beat and it is fun



I have run with NASA, BMW, PCA, etc and will say in the mid level groups, not many cars are faster than the vette's other than the 911's and gtr's



I agree.. and I see these on ebay turn key for $17k. And I let off the gas at RRR or road atlanta at 140 mph for the same reason.. but a good truck and trailer would be ~$15k. That total is over $30k... that is WAY beyond wwhat I can really spend

I am not living with my head in the sand, I know bad things happen.. thus here I am.


This!

I run 275/40/17 nt05's square as my track tires. $750 mounted! and last over 2 years!!



My DD is gona be replaced next year as well, but replacing with a truck seems like not what I want. I want to enjoy the other times I am driving not in the vette. I am looking at a focus ST

That's why no cage in the vette.. if I am gonna cage it, I will buy a track rat. But, you make valid points.

But, I do agree with what you are saying. And I am thinking a caged car and tow rig are more than I want.. but, maybe I am not thinking clearly about this.

Again, I hit 140mph down the front straight of RRR and back striaght of Road Atlanta and I let off the go pedal. I know bad stuff WILL happen. Heck, I spun the car at TGPR at ~65 mph

I know W2W is NOT what I wanna do.. so do I get a track rat just for HPDE?

Charley Hoyt

I would stick with the Vette. It is a fantastic track car and reasonably affordable. I really enjoyed tracking mine.... But I finally got to the point where I felt my safety was important enough to justify a care with full safety equipment. These cars are faster than many full race cars.... It amazes me when I see people driving 150 to 170 mph with just a helmet and no cage. Things do go wrong and things can turn bad fast. I considered going with an ASA car, but just couldn't bring myself to get a stock car (no offense to anyone that has or wants one). I also wanted to have downforce, so I went with a Radical.... And I still can't wipe the grin off of my face

So in short, stick with the Vette until you get fast. Then either add the safety equipment or buy a race car that already has it

Started here......



Currently here......

bags142

Don't even get me started... I got 10 laps in the passenger seat of an Atom at AMP... THAT was fun!!

I think I have seen some of your posts.. I REALLY like the Radical. I bet that thing is a ton of fun to drive.


As I sit here and re-read all the posts all the discussion seems to be about safety, which is a great thing and another one of my thoughts/questions. And I am NOT going to cage my vette. If I decide on a cage, I will buy a car that has one to save money and at that point, I won't be able to keep the vette. I will sell it to buy the new track car

So, maybe the question I should be asking is am I ready for a car with a cage?

That seems to be where most people spilt on personal choice

Soloontario

I used to just have a daily driver/track car (even took off the trick suspension and drove the Camaro in Canadian winters, really good for learning car control). Now I have the C5Z which is not used daily but is perfectly streetable to get me to and from the track.

Obviously the top choice would be a full out race car/tow vehicle/trailer but not only is this a lot more money but for me, storage of all of the above is a big issue. Also one of the advantages of having a streetable track car is that you can test out the new pads/bearings/ alignment etc. BEFORE you get to the track and you are rarely caught out at the track due to an unforeseen mechanical issue. Also you don't have to use a tow vehicle as your daily driver.

BTW Radicals (and Arial Atoms) are indeed radical, but certainly NOT cheap.

lefrog

I tracked a C4 without a cage. When I started to track the C5 (stock but harness bar, race seats and sparco wheel), after 2 track days I decided I would not track the car anymore without a cage. It is way too fast and has basically no side protection (look at what's in the door in my rollcage build thread: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ld-thread.html).
If you are concerned with the running cost, don't run a Corvette. It is a great car but it will eat tires, rotors, pads and so on. Big power and big weight will do that.
Right now I think my second choice would be a Factory Five 818. Simple, light, cheap, fast... the only drawback is that you have to built it yourself and the waiting list is really long.