HPDE instructor interest.....
07-07-2014, 10:46 PM
#21
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The reason he referenced his own perspective is because that is exactly what I was seeking in my original post. I am looking for the instructors' perspectives.
Last edited by SouthernSon; 07-07-2014 at 10:58 PM.
07-08-2014, 12:03 AM
#22
Burning Brakes
My friend and I are both 33 and have been instructing the last 4-5 years or so. We are both giving it up mostly for the reasons below.
1) We feel that the "fun" of the events are gone. It's more like work. Our friends that track with us enjoy the day as we spend it all day in the car. I come back and I'm exhausted and they are energized ready to go out. When instructing the day flies by. I go from the students car, to mine, to a brief 20-25 min break and then repeat. All day long and if you get a student you don't like it makes the day even worse. Also, if there is any wrenching that must be done then you have little time to do it. It just wears on me and I don't enjoy the events as much as I used to. I end up driving 15 min sessions because I want to hurry up and get in the paddock so I can sit and relax for a few minutes before having to go out with the student again, especially because every student always wants to drive the full 30 minutes. Sometimes I even skip sessions.
2) Both of us have been in accidents and his wife nor my girl friend want us instructing anymore. A $20,000 medical bill doesn't offset a free track day. If you instruct long enough you're going to have an incident of some kind that will shake you up. Instructors will argue they are in control but it's an illusion IMO. Unfortunately, there is only so much control you have with a mic and with the increasing power and speeds of newer cars that people start out with it makes me uneasy. Another instructor I know had to have back surgery when his student lost control and hit the wall. I just read another article where an instructor was killed recently. After enough incidents I started asking myself is this really worth it to save a few bucks?
1) We feel that the "fun" of the events are gone. It's more like work. Our friends that track with us enjoy the day as we spend it all day in the car. I come back and I'm exhausted and they are energized ready to go out. When instructing the day flies by. I go from the students car, to mine, to a brief 20-25 min break and then repeat. All day long and if you get a student you don't like it makes the day even worse. Also, if there is any wrenching that must be done then you have little time to do it. It just wears on me and I don't enjoy the events as much as I used to. I end up driving 15 min sessions because I want to hurry up and get in the paddock so I can sit and relax for a few minutes before having to go out with the student again, especially because every student always wants to drive the full 30 minutes. Sometimes I even skip sessions.
2) Both of us have been in accidents and his wife nor my girl friend want us instructing anymore. A $20,000 medical bill doesn't offset a free track day. If you instruct long enough you're going to have an incident of some kind that will shake you up. Instructors will argue they are in control but it's an illusion IMO. Unfortunately, there is only so much control you have with a mic and with the increasing power and speeds of newer cars that people start out with it makes me uneasy. Another instructor I know had to have back surgery when his student lost control and hit the wall. I just read another article where an instructor was killed recently. After enough incidents I started asking myself is this really worth it to save a few bucks?
I really don't agree that I have to pay extra if I have an instructor, and NONE of it goes to the actual instructor.
07-08-2014, 01:51 AM
#23
Drifting
I raced most of my life and loved it. Instructing is a way for me to give back to the sport that gave me so much. However, at 70 years old and on drugs for prostate cancer it is getting much more difficult for me to do an adequate job. I think it is time for me to hang it up or just instruct new or green students.
I was at VIR with NCM and will be at Track Attack in two weeks and then all four days at the new NCM track.
Jim
I was at VIR with NCM and will be at Track Attack in two weeks and then all four days at the new NCM track.
Jim
07-08-2014, 03:05 AM
#24
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After instructing for 16 years, I'm close to giving it up for most of the reasons already discussed. I've probably had close to 200 students over the years, and am happy to say that probably 197 of them were willing to listen, willing to learn, and were gratifying to instruct. Times are changing, however. I'm not a twenty-something any more, and I'm finding that events take a greater physical toll on me than they used to. Two students is definitely a no-go for me now. It is also a concern to me that so many first-timers are showing up with 500-700 HP cars. Things can happen quickly out there, and the idea that the instructor is always in control can only be taken so far. All it takes is one nervous twitch of the loud pedal for things to go awry, as a recent right seat stint in a tweaked carbon edition Z06 demonstrated. Stability control took over, and was much appreciated at that moment.
Bill
07-08-2014, 08:06 AM
#25
Drifting
Doesn't sound like you should instruct. Everything you talked about in your first paragraph was about you and nothing about the student. Instructors should not approach the day thinking only about themselves. At least you say you are willing to skip a session rather than blow off a student's session. (Although your day would be done if you pulled that which is a good motivator not to blow off students) If you're not having fun anymore why do it? Just go back to running track days.
Your second paragraph only reinforces my belief about your first paragraph... if you are only instructing to save a few bucks - you don't belong instructing. Same goes for guys who do it for ego or any other reason except to give back and pass on knowledge. Sorry -- it all breaks down from there.
I've been doing this a long time and have seen a wave of bad attitude creep into DE. Maybe back when everyone registered for the event had to work at flag stations for 3 hours per day the instructors realized just how good they had it.
Regarding people getting hurt... crap can happen, but in 25 years it has almost always, in my experience, been the guys who think they are Mario teaching their protege' how to be "fast" where the trouble starts. This is not to say that the odd issue such as part failure doesn't happen, but it's more uncommon.
To the OP: I believe it's the economy plus a huge increase in different organizations that now run DE events. For a decade I only seemed to instruct for a couple of the car clubs and now there must be at least 10 organizations I work with including a couple of race tracks that runs programs themselves. There are a lot of choices out there.
Your second paragraph only reinforces my belief about your first paragraph... if you are only instructing to save a few bucks - you don't belong instructing. Same goes for guys who do it for ego or any other reason except to give back and pass on knowledge. Sorry -- it all breaks down from there.
I've been doing this a long time and have seen a wave of bad attitude creep into DE. Maybe back when everyone registered for the event had to work at flag stations for 3 hours per day the instructors realized just how good they had it.
Regarding people getting hurt... crap can happen, but in 25 years it has almost always, in my experience, been the guys who think they are Mario teaching their protege' how to be "fast" where the trouble starts. This is not to say that the odd issue such as part failure doesn't happen, but it's more uncommon.
To the OP: I believe it's the economy plus a huge increase in different organizations that now run DE events. For a decade I only seemed to instruct for a couple of the car clubs and now there must be at least 10 organizations I work with including a couple of race tracks that runs programs themselves. There are a lot of choices out there.
I've been told time and time again that I provide more feedback than my student's previous instructors and have gotten them faster and smoother.
I have definitely been dedicated to the sport and growing it for quite some time.
Last edited by JeremyGSU; 07-08-2014 at 08:22 AM.
07-08-2014, 08:40 AM
#26
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Totally agree! Jim, your instruction at TA a few years ago when I was a newbie is really what helped me start to get an understanding of car control and gave me the confidence needed to truly start exploring my car and it's capabilities. I've turned a lot of laps since then, spent a lot of time with other instructors in the car and gotten a lot faster since then but the impact that you had on me as a new driver first starting to explore the track is something that I will never forget and should not be underestimated. That is something that I think all coaches need to remember, we all once were newbies that knew nothing. We are where we are and have the skills that we do for a large part because of all of the people like Jim that took the time and expended the effort to pass on some of their knowledge to us and help us learn. As a new instructor my self with HOD I do no look at it as work, I look at it as an opportunity to give something back to the next generation of drivers.
Jim is a great guy that enjoys giving back to the sport that has been very rewarding to him for many years. His is one of those that has demonstrated skills on the track winning many trophies along the way and is able to teach in a very effective and caring way. 
07-08-2014, 09:02 AM
#27
Drifting
I have pretty much backed off to only instructing my daughters or my friends that specifically ask me to work with them at an event. The reality for me is I can afford the events and I prefer racing versus lapping or time trailing.
Yes,I know that is going to come across as a ME focus and not a student focus. And it is true. While I enjoy instructing, I never enjoyed it enough to pay for the privilege of instructing. Some of you that have noble thoughts of "you should only instruct if you enjoy it" should ask yourself if you would continue doing it if you were not comped track time or paid for your time. If so, great. I know several that do exactly that, instruct and never turn a lap behind the wheel of a car nor take any payment. That is the minority of instructors.
I think for the most part, and some of you stated it, there are just so many organizations nowadays fighting for the same pool of students and instructors. Numbers are bound to appear thinner at each event.
Yes,I know that is going to come across as a ME focus and not a student focus. And it is true. While I enjoy instructing, I never enjoyed it enough to pay for the privilege of instructing. Some of you that have noble thoughts of "you should only instruct if you enjoy it" should ask yourself if you would continue doing it if you were not comped track time or paid for your time. If so, great. I know several that do exactly that, instruct and never turn a lap behind the wheel of a car nor take any payment. That is the minority of instructors.
I think for the most part, and some of you stated it, there are just so many organizations nowadays fighting for the same pool of students and instructors. Numbers are bound to appear thinner at each event.
07-08-2014, 09:49 AM
#28
Melting Slicks
I have pretty much backed off to only instructing my daughters or my friends that specifically ask me to work with them at an event. The reality for me is I can afford the events and I prefer racing versus lapping or time trailing.
Yes,I know that is going to come across as a ME focus and not a student focus. And it is true. While I enjoy instructing, I never enjoyed it enough to pay for the privilege of instructing. .
Yes,I know that is going to come across as a ME focus and not a student focus. And it is true. While I enjoy instructing, I never enjoyed it enough to pay for the privilege of instructing. .
I also prefer racing, I find lapping boring. In 18 years of instructing, I've never entered a car in a HPDE.
For me volunteering as an instructor (and 5 years as Chief of Tech) is a payback for the 100's of volunteer workers that let me race for many years. All I get out of it is a $25 gas card per day.
07-08-2014, 09:55 AM
#29
It would be nice to have something like at the Nurburgring where you can just show up, pay to run a lap or two and go. Does anything like that even exist around here?
07-08-2014, 10:37 AM
#30
Drifting
Your only option is spending $150+ for way more track time, unless you happen to get lucky and know someone running the event that is willing to cut you a special deal.
07-08-2014, 11:15 AM
#31
Drifting
As an event organizer I know the main reasons I struggle to get instructors are:
1. The huge risk. As mentioned above, there is NOTHING an instructor can physically do in the car. Students freeze up; their brains stop accepting incoming information; or in the rare case they just don't obey instructions.
2. It's too much. Due to reason number 1, more and more instructors are taking students out in their car instead of riding with a student. That means a bunch more gas/tires/brakes/etc that comes out of their pockets. It also is tiring as said a number of times.
One possible solution for me is to start paying the instructors. And by me, I mean my participants. The only way for me to pay the instructors is to raise the entrance fee or charge a fee for instruction. The obvious down side to that is many beginners and/or people who can just afford the track day will not choose to use an instructor at all.
Ken
1. The huge risk. As mentioned above, there is NOTHING an instructor can physically do in the car. Students freeze up; their brains stop accepting incoming information; or in the rare case they just don't obey instructions.
2. It's too much. Due to reason number 1, more and more instructors are taking students out in their car instead of riding with a student. That means a bunch more gas/tires/brakes/etc that comes out of their pockets. It also is tiring as said a number of times.
One possible solution for me is to start paying the instructors. And by me, I mean my participants. The only way for me to pay the instructors is to raise the entrance fee or charge a fee for instruction. The obvious down side to that is many beginners and/or people who can just afford the track day will not choose to use an instructor at all.
Ken
07-08-2014, 02:35 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
Totally agree! Jim, your instruction at TA a few years ago when I was a newbie is really what helped me start to get an understanding of car control and gave me the confidence needed to truly start exploring my car and it's capabilities. I've turned a lot of laps since then, spent a lot of time with other instructors in the car and gotten a lot faster since then but the impact that you had on me as a new driver first starting to explore the track is something that I will never forget and should not be underestimated. That is something that I think all coaches need to remember, we all once were newbies that knew nothing. We are where we are and have the skills that we do for a large part because of all of the people like Jim that took the time and expended the effort to pass on some of their knowledge to us and help us learn. As a new instructor my self with HOD I do no look at it as work, I look at it as an opportunity to give something back to the next generation of drivers.
Both great guys. I hope to see to see you at TA in a few weeks.
Jim
07-08-2014, 02:37 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Love you Arte!
Jim
07-08-2014, 04:57 PM
#34
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I have been instructing for over 12 years. Last year, I instructed at 17 events. This year the number will be reduced. I am getting older, and beginning to feel the lack of freshness and to some degree, perhaps some of the edge. First: For two years now, I have requested only one student, and I do not care what driving level but I am particular about what car they are driving. I enjoy the novice driver. High horse power and novice drivers require heads up from the get go. Second: I will not pay to instruct. Some events are attempting to charge instructors a fee if they only accept one student. No problem with me, I just will not instruct for them. And Third: There are tracks that I will not right seat at, and no comment other than I do not go there.
I do check rides with some of the events that I instruct at, students that wish to move up in class, or be signed off for solo. Sometimes the level of driving skills being displayed by some of these drivers, needs a lot to be desired, which to me indicates a lack of instruction somewhere along the way. This concerns me, particularly at the effort being made by organizers to increase their instructor pool. Are the instructors being recruited really qualified? Just a thought.
vz
I do check rides with some of the events that I instruct at, students that wish to move up in class, or be signed off for solo. Sometimes the level of driving skills being displayed by some of these drivers, needs a lot to be desired, which to me indicates a lack of instruction somewhere along the way. This concerns me, particularly at the effort being made by organizers to increase their instructor pool. Are the instructors being recruited really qualified? Just a thought.
vz
07-08-2014, 07:34 PM
#36
Drifting
Something else that I and the rest of the C5 Mafia have noticed.... we tend to be given the high horsepower cars over and over again. This is a compliment and a hassle at the same time. We are given the fast cars and fast drivers because we have fast cars and are fast drivers. As Von Zoom stated, you have to be on your guard from the moment you get near the car until you step out of it. And you have to think SOOOO much farther ahead. After doing that over and over in my own car all day long, and then in a students car over and over and over, I am flat worn out by the time the day ends.
It is refreshing to get a slow car sometimes. Thrilling almost. I can still think ahead of the student, but at a slower pace. That is probably another reason why I have enjoyed instructing my daughters... we use our 2000 bone stock Miata (with rollbar) on street tires. It is our youngest daughters daily driver and it can't get out of its own way when they are driving it. It is actually a REAL ACCOMPLISHMENT when they pass someone.
It is refreshing to get a slow car sometimes. Thrilling almost. I can still think ahead of the student, but at a slower pace. That is probably another reason why I have enjoyed instructing my daughters... we use our 2000 bone stock Miata (with rollbar) on street tires. It is our youngest daughters daily driver and it can't get out of its own way when they are driving it. It is actually a REAL ACCOMPLISHMENT when they pass someone.
07-08-2014, 08:39 PM
#38
Drifting
07-09-2014, 09:05 AM
#39
Safety Car
Something else that I and the rest of the C5 Mafia have noticed.... we tend to be given the high horsepower cars over and over again. This is a compliment and a hassle at the same time. We are given the fast cars and fast drivers because we have fast cars and are fast drivers. As Von Zoom stated, you have to be on your guard from the moment you get near the car until you step out of it. And you have to think SOOOO much farther ahead. After doing that over and over in my own car all day long, and then in a students car over and over and over, I am flat worn out by the time the day ends.
It is refreshing to get a slow car sometimes. Thrilling almost. I can still think ahead of the student, but at a slower pace. That is probably another reason why I have enjoyed instructing my daughters... we use our 2000 bone stock Miata (with rollbar) on street tires. It is our youngest daughters daily driver and it can't get out of its own way when they are driving it. It is actually a REAL ACCOMPLISHMENT when they pass someone.
It is refreshing to get a slow car sometimes. Thrilling almost. I can still think ahead of the student, but at a slower pace. That is probably another reason why I have enjoyed instructing my daughters... we use our 2000 bone stock Miata (with rollbar) on street tires. It is our youngest daughters daily driver and it can't get out of its own way when they are driving it. It is actually a REAL ACCOMPLISHMENT when they pass someone.
Never thought about that much
I really like it when that little light comes on in their eyes
for quite a few years now the attendance has been down (economy)
it hits everyone........
and is a cause in the decline. quite a few groups are gone and some tracks too!
as for me yes I can only afford to do just so many events per year
07-09-2014, 12:14 PM
#40
Drifting
Much easier to instruct when everything isn't going 1000mph. In a Miata you almost feel like you have time to read a book after instructing a ZR1.