Let's talk "point bys" at HPDEs
05-29-2012, 04:25 PM
#21
From the events I've been able to participate in I've seen the same types of things happen. Best bet is to remind yourself that you're out there to have fun and learn, if you find that you are getting held up and having issues with point-by's pull into the pit for a moment and come back out with some distance between you and whoever is holding you up.
On my last outing I was the fastest person in my run group (by no means am I trying to say I'm awesome or better than anyone else) and whenever I would run up on a slow car or group I would get up behind them so they knew I was there then back off to give them space (I've seen a car go off track and into the trees from being "pushed" a little). Once we got to the next passing zone I would get up again so they knew I was still there and wait for the point by. When you're going a little slower you can focus more on the line and learning the track.
If you constantly find yourself behind someone who is not giving point-by's I would address it with your instructor or the lead instructor at the event.
No worries Tormaina, we all goof up every once in a while but it gives us the chance to learn and improve for next time.
On my last outing I was the fastest person in my run group (by no means am I trying to say I'm awesome or better than anyone else) and whenever I would run up on a slow car or group I would get up behind them so they knew I was there then back off to give them space (I've seen a car go off track and into the trees from being "pushed" a little). Once we got to the next passing zone I would get up again so they knew I was still there and wait for the point by. When you're going a little slower you can focus more on the line and learning the track.
If you constantly find yourself behind someone who is not giving point-by's I would address it with your instructor or the lead instructor at the event.
No worries Tormaina, we all goof up every once in a while but it gives us the chance to learn and improve for next time.
05-29-2012, 04:35 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
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Point bye for every pass is correct indeed........
I see a BIGGER problem with cars passing from point bye's on Yellow Flags..or point byes on NO PASSING area's on the track....
Keep your eye on the corner people at all times...................
I see a BIGGER problem with cars passing from point bye's on Yellow Flags..or point byes on NO PASSING area's on the track....
Keep your eye on the corner people at all times...................
05-29-2012, 04:58 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
I was in the middle of a large carousel once when I pointed one car by... car behind him (which I didn't see) interpreted it as ok for him to pass as well... I started to turn into the inner part of the corner after the first car went by, only to have car #2 zip past me unexpectedly. I went off track to avoid him.
05-29-2012, 07:45 PM
#24
Race Director
For those of you that want to try something a little different, come on down to Daytona this fall.
There are several HPDE's in Oct, Nov, and Dec. A couple of the sponsoring organizations let you run with the windows closed, and of course the track rescue guys have signed off on that procedure.
Many of the cars may have window nets that also restrict arms out the window.
With your window closed you can't stick an arm out the window to give a point by. Even if you are running with windows down and you're doing 135-140 mph around the banking you don't need to be taking a hand off the wheel and sticking it out into that kind of wind blast to give a point by to somebody coming up behind you at 150+!!
So....we use the turn signal. All passing on the two straights in the infield and anywhere on the banking is done to the right, so the car being overtaken puts on his right blinker to authorize a pass.
A slow car that has a train behind them coming out of the infield can stay low, put on his right turn signal, and if he leaves it on that authorizes anybody coming up behind him to go by above him on the right.
So....every track may have something different going on, and that makes it very important to fully cover the procedures in driver meetings.
Bob
There are several HPDE's in Oct, Nov, and Dec. A couple of the sponsoring organizations let you run with the windows closed, and of course the track rescue guys have signed off on that procedure.
Many of the cars may have window nets that also restrict arms out the window.
With your window closed you can't stick an arm out the window to give a point by. Even if you are running with windows down and you're doing 135-140 mph around the banking you don't need to be taking a hand off the wheel and sticking it out into that kind of wind blast to give a point by to somebody coming up behind you at 150+!!
So....we use the turn signal. All passing on the two straights in the infield and anywhere on the banking is done to the right, so the car being overtaken puts on his right blinker to authorize a pass.
A slow car that has a train behind them coming out of the infield can stay low, put on his right turn signal, and if he leaves it on that authorizes anybody coming up behind him to go by above him on the right.
So....every track may have something different going on, and that makes it very important to fully cover the procedures in driver meetings.
Bob
05-29-2012, 09:15 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
Well I don't feel as bad as even the instructors with more seat time can get it wrong.
My instructor for this last Saturday was great, was only my 3rd time running hot laps but I'm progressing very nicely. He showed me a few things for me to work one, specifically for me working on my breathing (I hold my breathe in corners, LOL), relaxed grip of the wheel, and to constantly, constantly do Looks for the Corner Workers, even across the track to have as much info as possible to be safe on track.
He has over 50K track miles on his Lotus Exige and I asked to ride with him during the instructor session for the experience to keep learning from better drivers. HOLY %#^&#%^&!!!!! I think I stained his seats! He is aggressive and VERY FAST. Talk about late braking, oh my Lord! Needless to say it was a great learning experience and I have a LOT to learn. But great building blocks to work from.
My instructor for this last Saturday was great, was only my 3rd time running hot laps but I'm progressing very nicely. He showed me a few things for me to work one, specifically for me working on my breathing (I hold my breathe in corners, LOL), relaxed grip of the wheel, and to constantly, constantly do Looks for the Corner Workers, even across the track to have as much info as possible to be safe on track.
He has over 50K track miles on his Lotus Exige and I asked to ride with him during the instructor session for the experience to keep learning from better drivers. HOLY %#^&#%^&!!!!! I think I stained his seats! He is aggressive and VERY FAST. Talk about late braking, oh my Lord! Needless to say it was a great learning experience and I have a LOT to learn. But great building blocks to work from.
I too have tried pitting for some clean track but it didn't work to well at RA with 70 cars in the session.
05-29-2012, 10:20 PM
#27
Race Director
this happens all the time, calm down and WAIT! NASA Southeast has (or at least sometimes does have), what I consider, a bad habit of allowing the "point the arm out the window and hold it" policy, basically just keep passing until he pulls the arm in. There is no way the car being passed, the one COMMUNICATING the command, can know how many cars are coming.
The best passing policy is a single point, per car, period. If you don't see it, don't take it.
The best passing policy is a single point, per car, period. If you don't see it, don't take it.
05-29-2012, 10:58 PM
#28
Race Director
It has always been 1-point=1 car. Last weekend at Pocono, there were 4 cars that were faster than me, they were playing lead follow all day. I gave 4 consecutive points and each driver waited till he got his individual point. I also played lead follow with another driver that I know and every time we got a point, we waited for our individual point-byes. Just taking a point with another car and assuming the driver who gave the point "knew you were there" is a dangerous move and could have resulted in someone going off, a collision, a crash, injury, or death. Don't let the fact that this is "only hpdes) fool you, its still dangerous and there are rules to follow. We try to make this as safe as possible for everyone involved, and the rules are in place to do that. I'm relying on you, and you're relying on me so I know that you know and understand what I'm going to do in a passing situation, and vice-versa. I may sound like a jerk-off, but I might save your life or someone elses. We've all had to live through the learning curve, take a deep breath and come back a better informed driver the next time.
Last edited by GeorgeZNJ; 05-29-2012 at 11:11 PM.
05-29-2012, 11:08 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Years ago one of the members at Autobahn came up to one of our Pros and complained of not getting a timely point by in an open track session. He said it "ruined his lap time."
The Pro said, "So?" "Are you racing?"
It was such a simple answer and the member after thinking about it for a minute realized it really didn't matter in the grand scheme and laughed at himself for being so harried. Live another day.
I tell students to be patient -- it's a good time to check gauges and refocus.
Most slower cars are not holding the faster drivers back on purpose so give them a break, they obviously have their hands full -- just have a civil talk after the session with them.
I have given and received point bys in races, there's no such thing as too much communication between drivers on track.
Mike
05-29-2012, 11:49 PM
#30
Drifting
For those of you that want to try something a little different, come on down to Daytona this fall.
There are several HPDE's in Oct, Nov, and Dec. A couple of the sponsoring organizations let you run with the windows closed, and of course the track rescue guys have signed off on that procedure.
Many of the cars may have window nets that also restrict arms out the window.
With your window closed you can't stick an arm out the window to give a point by. Even if you are running with windows down and you're doing 135-140 mph around the banking you don't need to be taking a hand off the wheel and sticking it out into that kind of wind blast to give a point by to somebody coming up behind you at 150+!!
So....we use the turn signal. All passing on the two straights in the infield and anywhere on the banking is done to the right, so the car being overtaken puts on his right blinker to authorize a pass.
A slow car that has a train behind them coming out of the infield can stay low, put on his right turn signal, and if he leaves it on that authorizes anybody coming up behind him to go by above him on the right.
So....every track may have something different going on, and that makes it very important to fully cover the procedures in driver meetings.
Bob
There are several HPDE's in Oct, Nov, and Dec. A couple of the sponsoring organizations let you run with the windows closed, and of course the track rescue guys have signed off on that procedure.
Many of the cars may have window nets that also restrict arms out the window.
With your window closed you can't stick an arm out the window to give a point by. Even if you are running with windows down and you're doing 135-140 mph around the banking you don't need to be taking a hand off the wheel and sticking it out into that kind of wind blast to give a point by to somebody coming up behind you at 150+!!
So....we use the turn signal. All passing on the two straights in the infield and anywhere on the banking is done to the right, so the car being overtaken puts on his right blinker to authorize a pass.
A slow car that has a train behind them coming out of the infield can stay low, put on his right turn signal, and if he leaves it on that authorizes anybody coming up behind him to go by above him on the right.
So....every track may have something different going on, and that makes it very important to fully cover the procedures in driver meetings.
Bob
My logic is that it is better to have both hands on the wheel, especially when you are giving a multiple point by to the right. Even more so when driving in an advanced group with full course passing.
I brought it up once at a BMW event, and in the classroom, the instructor shouted me down like I was an idiot. Oh, well.
05-30-2012, 03:23 AM
#31
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It can get a little confusing depending on the situation and the number of cars involved. Just remember each car you pass has to give you a point by. If somebody in front of you is given a point by and as they are passing that car they give you a point by don't take it unless the first car has also given you a point by. Always be alert to strange things happening when you are passing. No matter what you think you saw or heard, Communication is an Unnatural Act so be ready for mis-interpratation on your or the other person's part.
I had a situation a few weeks ago that shows up in one of the videos I posted about data logging software. The Instructor Group was running and we take late point bys and do pass going into corners and in some corners. The car in front of me was waiting for a passing signal to the right as we went around the carousel turn at the Glen (per driver's meeting), the car ahead of him didn't give the passing signal and moved to the far right as we started down the chute going into T 6, at that point the car ahead of me is passing the other car and the driver's hand comes out of the door as if he is giving me the signal to pass on the left just as the car ahead of me was going past him (you can see him clearly point his hand to the left). I followed the passing car at a safe distance into the corner but I also felt funny about the car I was beside so kept my eye on him. He is out of sight on the video but all of a sudden shows up coming from my right and if I had not been suspicious we would have collided at the apex of the turn. Here is the video, the incident starts to unfold at about the 8:15 mark. Watch the red car.
Bill
I had a situation a few weeks ago that shows up in one of the videos I posted about data logging software. The Instructor Group was running and we take late point bys and do pass going into corners and in some corners. The car in front of me was waiting for a passing signal to the right as we went around the carousel turn at the Glen (per driver's meeting), the car ahead of him didn't give the passing signal and moved to the far right as we started down the chute going into T 6, at that point the car ahead of me is passing the other car and the driver's hand comes out of the door as if he is giving me the signal to pass on the left just as the car ahead of me was going past him (you can see him clearly point his hand to the left). I followed the passing car at a safe distance into the corner but I also felt funny about the car I was beside so kept my eye on him. He is out of sight on the video but all of a sudden shows up coming from my right and if I had not been suspicious we would have collided at the apex of the turn. Here is the video, the incident starts to unfold at about the 8:15 mark. Watch the red car.
Bill
05-30-2012, 09:25 AM
#33
Drifting
Some years back I had an instructor tell me I was getting too close to the car ahead. My experience was if you didn't get in their mirror the point by would never come so I made no mistake to the driver in front I wanted to pass.
I still waited for a point by from each car before passing.
I still waited for a point by from each car before passing.
Part of that should be the corner workers. If my student is behind for several corners they ought to be throwing a flag as well as the instructor in the car in front.
05-30-2012, 10:30 AM
#34
Safety Car
^^It does happen a lot. I heard this guy was doing this to everybody. I think he let me by because I was putting so much pressure on him he almost lost it a couple of times trying to stay ahead of me. While it was fun chasing him down in retrospect I should not have pushed him so hard when I caught up to him.
The idea is to have fun but be safe. Should have pulled into the pits and gone out again. 
The idea is to have fun but be safe. Should have pulled into the pits and gone out again. 
" Porsche eventually let me by. Good thing about HPDE, is there is no clock running so it is not the end of the world to follow a slow car for just a little bit to make sure it is OK to pass. You can check gauges, stretch hands, cool car. But every event I have been to, it has always been the slower car's responsibility to designate who where and when they will be passed - period.
05-30-2012, 10:41 AM
#35
Melting Slicks
I'm sure everybody has seen this but it never gets old, I swear I had this guy as a student a weak ago. wanted to use the billy club instead of the chatterbox
http://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8
http://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8
05-30-2012, 11:19 AM
#36
Team Owner
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I'm sure everybody has seen this but it never gets old, I swear I had this guy as a student a weak ago. wanted to use the billy club instead of the chatterbox
http://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8
http://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8
that is funny no matter how many times you watch it
05-30-2012, 12:30 PM
#37
Safety Car
I had caught a Porsche and he was working his butt off trying to keep me behind him. After watching him almost lose it more than once, I thought I would back off before he wrecked, but the instructor told me "To stay on him - I was making him a better driver" Porsche eventually let me by. .
" Porsche eventually let me by. .
05-30-2012, 01:09 PM
#38
Drifting
I personally don't like the signal thing. I've seen Chin do it and many people forget to turn them off and drive around the track with their signals going. You go to pass and almost get in a wreck.
I've also had the "take my student out" backfire on me. They always say don't drive 100% but after a few laps I always find myself getting near 100. Then I go back out with my student and they damn near wreck the car trying to do what I just did. Terrible decisions on my part. I typically only do that if I can tell the guy is advancing quickly.
I've also had the "take my student out" backfire on me. They always say don't drive 100% but after a few laps I always find myself getting near 100. Then I go back out with my student and they damn near wreck the car trying to do what I just did. Terrible decisions on my part. I typically only do that if I can tell the guy is advancing quickly.
05-30-2012, 01:22 PM
#39
Safety Car
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St. Jude Donor '08
I had an instructor ride with me last year at VIR in intermediate just to help me with some parts of the track. I had caught a Porsche and he was working his butt off trying to keep me behind him. After watching him almost lose it more than once, I thought I would back off before he wrecked, but the instructor told me "To stay on him - I was making him a better driver" Porsche eventually let me by. Good thing about HPDE, is there is no clock running so it is not the end of the world to follow a slow car for just a little bit to make sure it is OK to pass. You can check gauges, stretch hands, cool car. But every event I have been to, it has always been the slower car's responsibility to designate who where and when they will be passed - period.
" Porsche eventually let me by. Good thing about HPDE, is there is no clock running so it is not the end of the world to follow a slow car for just a little bit to make sure it is OK to pass. You can check gauges, stretch hands, cool car. But every event I have been to, it has always been the slower car's responsibility to designate who where and when they will be passed - period.
Some people only learn the hard way and him going off or nearly going off might be what it takes to learn to let faster drivers by. It's a shame that it has to come to that though.Didn't the corner workers let him know he was slowing things down by flagging him. I have been at VIR several times and have found the corner workers are really good at showing flags to slower cars. Happened to me many times because I have a miata and everybody else has way more power than me.
I always knew they were there and was preparing to point them by when we got to the straight.With the faster cars I won't lift. They have to catch me, which is not too hard to do. I will lift for the slower cars though so they can get back on line before turns especially at the climbing esses at VIR.
05-30-2012, 01:33 PM
#40
Safety Car
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St. Jude Donor '08
I personally don't like the signal thing. I've seen Chin do it and many people forget to turn them off and drive around the track with their signals going. You go to pass and almost get in a wreck.
I've also had the "take my student out" backfire on me. They always say don't drive 100% but after a few laps I always find myself getting near 100. Then I go back out with my student and they damn near wreck the car trying to do what I just did. Terrible decisions on my part. I typically only do that if I can tell the guy is advancing quickly.
I've also had the "take my student out" backfire on me. They always say don't drive 100% but after a few laps I always find myself getting near 100. Then I go back out with my student and they damn near wreck the car trying to do what I just did. Terrible decisions on my part. I typically only do that if I can tell the guy is advancing quickly.
^^I really liked going out with my instructors. Every last one of them!!
They all showed me what was possible with the proper skills. I think I learned more from going out with them than when I drove.I never try to drive like my instructors because they are way better than me but I do try to pick up as many pointers as I can and incorporate them into my driving.
Had a really good instructor last time out, who also drove a miata, and learned and improved a whole lot.