Let me ask another way, who's LS3 HASN"T blown up on the track
03-23-2016, 03:01 PM
#301
Team Owner
is the C6 Z06 LS7 the same (blow up if you track it with sticky tires) or is it OK due to the factory dry sump? I get that maybe you can't run slicks without danger, but can you run r1's? it sounds like from these 15 pages:
1) the LS6 was pretty bulletproof
2) the LS3 is ok at HPDE when car is totally stock, stock tires, etc., but still a chance of boom. add suspension and/or tires and you are just waiting for it to blow.
3) the LS7 is pretty safe at HPDE due to the stock dry sump, but as suspension mods and sticky tires add in, the chance of boom increases. sounds like you can HPDE it as long as you don't run slicks.
is that correct?
1) the LS6 was pretty bulletproof
2) the LS3 is ok at HPDE when car is totally stock, stock tires, etc., but still a chance of boom. add suspension and/or tires and you are just waiting for it to blow.
3) the LS7 is pretty safe at HPDE due to the stock dry sump, but as suspension mods and sticky tires add in, the chance of boom increases. sounds like you can HPDE it as long as you don't run slicks.
is that correct?
03-25-2016, 12:14 AM
#302
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is the C6 Z06 LS7 the same (blow up if you track it with sticky tires) or is it OK due to the factory dry sump? I get that maybe you can't run slicks without danger, but can you run r1's? it sounds like from these 15 pages:
1) the LS6 was pretty bulletproof
2) the LS3 is ok at HPDE when car is totally stock, stock tires, etc., but still a chance of boom. add suspension and/or tires and you are just waiting for it to blow.
3) the LS7 is pretty safe at HPDE due to the stock dry sump, but as suspension mods and sticky tires add in, the chance of boom increases. sounds like you can HPDE it as long as you don't run slicks.
is that correct?
1) the LS6 was pretty bulletproof
2) the LS3 is ok at HPDE when car is totally stock, stock tires, etc., but still a chance of boom. add suspension and/or tires and you are just waiting for it to blow.
3) the LS7 is pretty safe at HPDE due to the stock dry sump, but as suspension mods and sticky tires add in, the chance of boom increases. sounds like you can HPDE it as long as you don't run slicks.
is that correct?
On my C5s I had a DRM radiator with a built in EOC and a remote oil filter which used the old 1 qt filters. With the extra quart of oil GM recommended when autocrossing or tracking the car I had a total of 9 qts of oil in those cars. I never had a problem but I never ran on a track with that type of turn. My stock 08Z with the 8 qt dry sump never had an issue either.
Bill
09-09-2016, 09:36 PM
#303
Le Mans Master
Does any one make a bolt on kit with the Accusump for the C6 Z51.
I've looked but have not been able to locate one.
I've looked but have not been able to locate one.
09-10-2016, 10:31 AM
#304
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
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LS3 crate motor installed in a certain SCCA competitor's car (complete with several championship stickers) is doing quite well after many events. Any problems incurred by others is not due to the engine but more likely the installation and plumbing.
09-10-2016, 11:33 AM
#305
Le Mans Master
I'm sorry, is your point that it's just not needed ( the Accusump I mean) on LS3 as long as the motor is setup correctly with an extra quart of oil and the tuning is good? That's honestly the direction I'm leaning in, and I've had no problems after 20 or so track days, but reading these threads gets me a little concerned.
Last edited by Suns_PSD; 09-10-2016 at 11:34 AM.
09-10-2016, 09:15 PM
#306
Melting Slicks
Do not track an LS3, with racing tires, without a dry sump. It will not survive - period. ARE (Armstrong race engineering) makes an aftermarket sump system that works well.
Last edited by wtknght1; 09-10-2016 at 09:18 PM.
09-10-2016, 09:17 PM
#307
Melting Slicks
09-11-2016, 04:49 PM
#308
Burning Brakes
I may be off-base here, but I had an '08 LS3 with 15k miles before I traded it on a ZR1. Of those 15k miles, literally half of them were track miles at ***** out track days. I had intake, headers, exhaust. Internally stock. Kept the engine at 1 quart over with 5W-30 M1 synthetic.
Zero issues whatesoever even at oil temps upwards of 305F. I guess I was lucky, but the car ran like a bat out of hell and I never had any issues at all except a blown clutch master cylinder at Texas World Speedway. Guess you're supposed to flush the clutch fluid occasionally using Rangers method. I never touched it and the master cylinder went at 13-14k. Engine had been redlined probably a couple thousand times or more in that timeframe.
From my 12 years of track day experience (basically since college), I have seen the track day problems on Corvettes originated 99% from these sources:
1. Not enough oil (manual says 1 quart over on the non-dry sump cars)
2. internal engine modifications
3. bad aftermarket engine tune
I trust GM to know what they are doing on the inside of the engine which is why I've always not done internal engine mods. Also, aftermarket tunes always open the door for bad things to happen. I always make sure I have the appropriate oil level.
Check out "quikagc5" on youtube and you'll see more than a dozen track day videos of my '08 LS3 including some acceleration runs. I had R888 tires and beat the **** out of the car. It loved it. When the oil temp got around 300F, I'd start short shifting around 5500rpm. Otherwise, I'd run it to red line all day long.
I firmly believe a lot of engine problems on the LS3 motors (and other LSx) engines are due to aftermarket parts (including oil coolers, dry sumps, cams, tunes, etc.)
The closer you can keep the car to stock with the quart extra of oil, the more likely your car will be just fine for several years of hard track days.
Just my 2 cents from real-world application with personal experience. I'm sure others have different opinions and experiences.
Zero issues whatesoever even at oil temps upwards of 305F. I guess I was lucky, but the car ran like a bat out of hell and I never had any issues at all except a blown clutch master cylinder at Texas World Speedway. Guess you're supposed to flush the clutch fluid occasionally using Rangers method. I never touched it and the master cylinder went at 13-14k. Engine had been redlined probably a couple thousand times or more in that timeframe.
From my 12 years of track day experience (basically since college), I have seen the track day problems on Corvettes originated 99% from these sources:
1. Not enough oil (manual says 1 quart over on the non-dry sump cars)
2. internal engine modifications
3. bad aftermarket engine tune
I trust GM to know what they are doing on the inside of the engine which is why I've always not done internal engine mods. Also, aftermarket tunes always open the door for bad things to happen. I always make sure I have the appropriate oil level.
Check out "quikagc5" on youtube and you'll see more than a dozen track day videos of my '08 LS3 including some acceleration runs. I had R888 tires and beat the **** out of the car. It loved it. When the oil temp got around 300F, I'd start short shifting around 5500rpm. Otherwise, I'd run it to red line all day long.
I firmly believe a lot of engine problems on the LS3 motors (and other LSx) engines are due to aftermarket parts (including oil coolers, dry sumps, cams, tunes, etc.)
The closer you can keep the car to stock with the quart extra of oil, the more likely your car will be just fine for several years of hard track days.
Just my 2 cents from real-world application with personal experience. I'm sure others have different opinions and experiences.
09-11-2016, 06:49 PM
#309
Melting Slicks
This sounds right in line with my experience except I have a EFORCE supercharger. I do at least 8-9 track weekends for the last 4 years. I have a very conservative tune built for torque not top in Hp. I also use red line products as well as Millers motor oil 1 quart extra.
Most track day guys don't corner hard enough to experience the kind of G forces necessary to hurt them; but the Chevy engineers I worked with back in 08 and 09 said the engine was designed to handle 1.1 to 1.2 lateral Gs for VERY short periods with no significant damage. In class T1, we routinely saw sustained Gs of 1.5 to 1.8...depending on the track.
For the record, I was the first in the country to campaign an LS3 for racing. Phoenix built the car and we began with very minimal mods to ensure it would supposedly) survive. It had the T1 suspension kit, Hoosier tires and a very moderate engine tune to run on just 93 octane...not even racing gas. There were no internal mods and I made sure I was at least 1 quart over.
On its first time on track, the engine lasted 1.5 laps at Sebring before it threw a rod. After just 1 warm up lap, the oil was already 275 degrees.
About 2 months later, I tried it again, with another bone stock LS3...this time at Roebling. I went very, very easy on the first session, but when I drained the oil, it looked like mercury. The stock oiling system is simply not designed for sustained lateral Gs. The engineers later came out with a modified bat-wing pan like the LS6, and it did help, but it was only a temporary band-aid for a much bigger internal problem.
It's your car and your money, so do what you want. But if you have any talent at all, and run an LS3 on track with racing tires, it will not survive. Again, there's a reason why Chevy stopped giving the Z51 option with the LS3 and offered the Grand Sport. I went through 6 engines in just 4 years! Before that, I never once HAD to replace any Corvette engine. Good luck to you.
09-12-2016, 12:38 PM
#310
Le Mans Master
There's a reason why Chevy stopped offering the Z51 kit for the LS3...and came out with the Grand Sport...with a dry sump!!!!
Most track day guys don't corner hard enough to experience the kind of G forces necessary to hurt them; but the Chevy engineers I worked with back in 08 and 09 said the engine was designed to handle 1.1 to 1.2 lateral Gs for VERY short periods with no significant damage. In class T1, we routinely saw sustained Gs of 1.5 to 1.8...depending on the track.
For the record, I was the first in the country to campaign an LS3 for racing. Phoenix built the car and we began with very minimal mods to ensure it would supposedly) survive. It had the T1 suspension kit, Hoosier tires and a very moderate engine tune to run on just 93 octane...not even racing gas. There were no internal mods and I made sure I was at least 1 quart over.
On its first time on track, the engine lasted 1.5 laps at Sebring before it threw a rod. After just 1 warm up lap, the oil was already 275 degrees.
About 2 months later, I tried it again, with another bone stock LS3...this time at Roebling. I went very, very easy on the first session, but when I drained the oil, it looked like mercury. The stock oiling system is simply not designed for sustained lateral Gs. The engineers later came out with a modified bat-wing pan like the LS6, and it did help, but it was only a temporary band-aid for a much bigger internal problem.
It's your car and your money, so do what you want. But if you have any talent at all, and run an LS3 on track with racing tires, it will not survive. Again, there's a reason why Chevy stopped giving the Z51 option with the LS3 and offered the Grand Sport. I went through 6 engines in just 4 years! Before that, I never once HAD to replace any Corvette engine. Good luck to you.
Most track day guys don't corner hard enough to experience the kind of G forces necessary to hurt them; but the Chevy engineers I worked with back in 08 and 09 said the engine was designed to handle 1.1 to 1.2 lateral Gs for VERY short periods with no significant damage. In class T1, we routinely saw sustained Gs of 1.5 to 1.8...depending on the track.
For the record, I was the first in the country to campaign an LS3 for racing. Phoenix built the car and we began with very minimal mods to ensure it would supposedly) survive. It had the T1 suspension kit, Hoosier tires and a very moderate engine tune to run on just 93 octane...not even racing gas. There were no internal mods and I made sure I was at least 1 quart over.
On its first time on track, the engine lasted 1.5 laps at Sebring before it threw a rod. After just 1 warm up lap, the oil was already 275 degrees.
About 2 months later, I tried it again, with another bone stock LS3...this time at Roebling. I went very, very easy on the first session, but when I drained the oil, it looked like mercury. The stock oiling system is simply not designed for sustained lateral Gs. The engineers later came out with a modified bat-wing pan like the LS6, and it did help, but it was only a temporary band-aid for a much bigger internal problem.
It's your car and your money, so do what you want. But if you have any talent at all, and run an LS3 on track with racing tires, it will not survive. Again, there's a reason why Chevy stopped giving the Z51 option with the LS3 and offered the Grand Sport. I went through 6 engines in just 4 years! Before that, I never once HAD to replace any Corvette engine. Good luck to you.
I have a coupe of hundred laps on my 2008 Z51 on R888s seeing consistently over 1.5Gs and I've had no issues. I'm not saying that I won't eventually, I'm just saying that clearly losing a motor within 1.5 laps is not ordinary!
09-12-2016, 12:39 PM
#311
Race Director
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The spintric accessory for Gary's system works well, too. Keeps the air out of it. The engine works very well with the correct installation and plumbing.
09-12-2016, 01:47 PM
#312
Safety Car
I scored the bearings and cranks on 2 consecutive HPDEs a few months apart (had to get the motor rebuilt and did it again next event) in my 402 LS2 equipped track car. My fix was to put a digital oil pressure gauge high on the A Pillar right by my left eye that was capable of being set with a low pressure number if reached would blink red. All the other fixes mentioned lessened the problem, but the blinking light allowed me to back off when the danger occurred.
09-12-2016, 02:09 PM
#313
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
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I think it's clear that you had problematic engines from the factory.
I have a coupe of hundred laps on my 2008 Z51 on R888s seeing consistently over 1.5Gs and I've had no issues. I'm not saying that I won't eventually, I'm just saying that clearly losing a motor within 1.5 laps is not ordinary!
I have a coupe of hundred laps on my 2008 Z51 on R888s seeing consistently over 1.5Gs and I've had no issues. I'm not saying that I won't eventually, I'm just saying that clearly losing a motor within 1.5 laps is not ordinary!
Not paying attention to his advice can be detrimental to your engines longevity.
Bill
09-12-2016, 04:58 PM
#314
Le Mans Master
I'm really not sure what to do here.
I'm not dropping another $5K+ to fix the problem to build a dry sump on a 9 year old car. Frankly I don't enjoy the track enough for all that.
I spoke to someone that is well versed in this topic today trying to find a solution and here is all I could gather:
1) He said the Accusump is complete crap. Never works and never will.
2) He said my LS3 wetsump is fine below 1.2Gs.
3) He said it's impossible to get a Corvette on R888s (the tires I run)over 1.2 Gs so I'm safe. I informed him that I consistently see 'over 1.5Gs in my car', cause I do. And by the way 'I haven't broken yet'. he said 'impossible'. I said 'maybe the OEM gauge is inaccurate?', I dunno? He said 'maybe'. Great.
4) He said Accusump is just crap and simply doesn't work. The correct solution is too build a dry sump system at a cost somewhere North of $6K to do it correctly.
The question I forgot to ask is: Can I run long left hand turns at a low rpm and be okay? Because I can do that and lose very little time. Anyone?
Does the fact that I have a crankcase ventilation in place change the equation at all?
Should I just avoid tracks that run counterclockwise altogether? Should I just use this bad *** car on the street only and just go without ever seeing the track again?
What to do? I was slowly building what I was considering the ultimate street/ track car within my budget and now I'm finding out that my car is not usable for the way I want to use it? This sucks.
I have a gauge that I believe has an emergency light on it that I can rig to the oil pressure. What pressure should I set it to? I feel like I'm unlikely to see the gauge. I get really focused when on a racetrack.
When you overfill by 1 quart to prepare for a track day, should I already have the oil line at the top of the F mark and then add exactly 1 quart?
~ pissed in TX
I'm not dropping another $5K+ to fix the problem to build a dry sump on a 9 year old car. Frankly I don't enjoy the track enough for all that.
I spoke to someone that is well versed in this topic today trying to find a solution and here is all I could gather:
1) He said the Accusump is complete crap. Never works and never will.
2) He said my LS3 wetsump is fine below 1.2Gs.
3) He said it's impossible to get a Corvette on R888s (the tires I run)over 1.2 Gs so I'm safe. I informed him that I consistently see 'over 1.5Gs in my car', cause I do. And by the way 'I haven't broken yet'. he said 'impossible'. I said 'maybe the OEM gauge is inaccurate?', I dunno? He said 'maybe'. Great.
4) He said Accusump is just crap and simply doesn't work. The correct solution is too build a dry sump system at a cost somewhere North of $6K to do it correctly.
The question I forgot to ask is: Can I run long left hand turns at a low rpm and be okay? Because I can do that and lose very little time. Anyone?
Does the fact that I have a crankcase ventilation in place change the equation at all?
Should I just avoid tracks that run counterclockwise altogether? Should I just use this bad *** car on the street only and just go without ever seeing the track again?
What to do? I was slowly building what I was considering the ultimate street/ track car within my budget and now I'm finding out that my car is not usable for the way I want to use it? This sucks.
I have a gauge that I believe has an emergency light on it that I can rig to the oil pressure. What pressure should I set it to? I feel like I'm unlikely to see the gauge. I get really focused when on a racetrack.
When you overfill by 1 quart to prepare for a track day, should I already have the oil line at the top of the F mark and then add exactly 1 quart?
~ pissed in TX
09-12-2016, 05:07 PM
#315
Team Owner
I'm really not sure what to do here.
I'm not dropping another $5K+ to fix the problem to build a dry sump on a 9 year old car. Frankly I don't enjoy the track enough for all that.
I spoke to someone that is well versed in this topic today trying to find a solution and here is all I could gather:
1) He said the Accusump is complete crap. Never works and never will.
2) He said my LS3 wetsump is fine below 1.2Gs.
3) He said it's impossible to get a Corvette on R888s (the tires I run)over 1.2 Gs so I'm safe. I informed him that I consistently see 'over 1.5Gs in my car', cause I do. And by the way 'I haven't broken yet'. he said 'impossible'. I said 'maybe the OEM gauge is inaccurate?', I dunno? He said 'maybe'. Great.
I'm not dropping another $5K+ to fix the problem to build a dry sump on a 9 year old car. Frankly I don't enjoy the track enough for all that.
I spoke to someone that is well versed in this topic today trying to find a solution and here is all I could gather:
1) He said the Accusump is complete crap. Never works and never will.
2) He said my LS3 wetsump is fine below 1.2Gs.
3) He said it's impossible to get a Corvette on R888s (the tires I run)over 1.2 Gs so I'm safe. I informed him that I consistently see 'over 1.5Gs in my car', cause I do. And by the way 'I haven't broken yet'. he said 'impossible'. I said 'maybe the OEM gauge is inaccurate?', I dunno? He said 'maybe'. Great.
09-12-2016, 05:10 PM
#316
Sr.Random input generator
09-12-2016, 05:19 PM
#317
Burning Brakes
At the end of a run before turning the car off, push and hold in the page button the HUD. It will display your max G during your run. I don't always check but many times I'm in the 1.4s. Now there are different versions I'm told of the HUD I have a newer one so maybe a later edition may read differently.
09-12-2016, 05:21 PM
#318
Team Owner
At the end of a run before turning the car off, push and hold in the page button the HUD. It will display your max G during your run. I don't always check but many times I'm in the 1.4s. Now there are different versions I'm told of the HUD I have a newer one so maybe a later edition may read differently.
09-12-2016, 05:26 PM
#319
Burning Brakes
09-12-2016, 05:46 PM
#320
Safety Car
I set my emergency low oil pressure light at 25 psi.
Years ago someone took an LS2 Camaro sump and found they could put near 7 quarts of oil in a 5.5 qt capacity sump without hitting the windage tray. You should find someone that has a LS3 Corvette Sump off the car and try the same thing.
Years ago someone took an LS2 Camaro sump and found they could put near 7 quarts of oil in a 5.5 qt capacity sump without hitting the windage tray. You should find someone that has a LS3 Corvette Sump off the car and try the same thing.