C5Z Poly Bushing/ball joint suspension upgrade lessons learned
12-10-2010, 01:27 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
C5Z Poly Bushing/ball joint suspension upgrade lessons learned
Part 1.
I promised our members that I would write up a lessons learned from my project.
Unfortunately I don't have pictures as the wife had the camera during the project (sorry all).
I will do my best from memory to run you all through my experience.
There are separate threads by me on the ball joint issue, greasing the rear leaf spring perch bushings/ensuring the spring is properly loaded etc in the Auto-X section of the board. You'll just have to do a little search.
That being said, I'll run through the project particulars and then follow into steps that were of concern.
Foreword:
I started this project at the rear end of the car then moved to the front.
The rear end of the car is way more difficult due to the number of parts involved or reconnecting up.
I won't for example go into how to separate the axle stub shafts from the spindles - you'll have to do a search on that (ie. there was a good write up by junkman I believe).
Also, I assume you know how to jack the car up and put on jack stands, how to handle basic tools etc.
This write up is about specific gotcha's about the job.
THINGS TO CONSIDER:
[1] Know your limits - the abilities of the weekend warrior span a tremendous range. I would rate this project a 4 out of 5 for difficulty or at least from a frustration or time consuming perspective. If you don't have a large pool of tools, a bench grinder, mapp gas turbo torch, a garage, decent hydraulic jack, jack stands for the front and rear, dremel, files, 2nd vehicle during the project, impact wrench(s) etc - you are in for trouble/delays/frustration.
[2] If you plan to take this project on: go in with a positive flexible "can do" attitude and plan to take the car out of service for a good 4 weekends or so. Yes you may be the man and can crank this out in a couple weekends. But things will come up. You'll only want to do this project once. Rushing through it making a mistake that you'll regret later on, resulting in a time consuming fix and possibly have to do another expensive performance alignment will not be pleasant.
[3] Know what your long term goals are: Carefully research the long lead parts, consumables, special tools & possibly outside resources (ie. back up machine shop) that you'll need. Have these on hand or lined up before you start. I spent some extra $ & frustration flying in redundant parts when the 1st parts didn't arrive at the planned "just in time" delivery, as well as ordering the wrong parts in the first place. Then you are returning parts for credit etc.
[4] I am a preventative maintenance kind of guy. While I have things apart, I like to replace potential items just because it is a peace of mind thing for me and it's quick to do since you are already in there. In this case, I felt the suspension is a system working in harmony. Only deviating from OEM rear suspension I felt would not add to the performance of the car, I felt if anything I could be at risk of reducing the handling capabilities of the car.
CAR & MAJOR PART SPECIFICS:
2004 C5Z w/48K miles on it.
Car is stock other than Bassani X-pipe, Goodrich SS brake lines w/high temp fluid, Pioneer Z3 navigation system, tinted windows.
Symptoms:
-Rear end felt loose during accelerating hard, suspected failing ball joints and/or bushings.
-Right rear upper control arm was gouging into the factory shock boot (chunks were missing from the shock boot which gave me the impression that I had large play in the rear suspension).
-Right rear tire while jacked up off the ground had significant play
Ordered the following parts originally:
-4 lower Moog ball joints
-4 upper Raybestos ball joints (other threads can tell you where to get these)
-VB and P:
[a]Xtreme Touring Kit (minus springs)
[b]Upper shock bushings
[c]Lower rear shock bushings
[d] swapped stock C5Z bushings for T1 sway bar bushings
-used T-1 Sway Bars
- Pfadt Camber kit
GOTCHA'S OR LESSONS LEARNED:
[a] Do your own research on whether to go with Pfadt or VB and P bushings.
Pfadt apparently have grease grooves cut into the bushings to allow future greasing if they squeak, VB and P do not. Then you'll read conflicting information on both brands as to if they squeak or not. Please keep in the back of your mind if the people installed them correctly or not.
[b] Grease - research what grease to use during the bushing install. I have read some information on the internet (always do your own research) that petroleum based grease's could reduce the life span of the poly bushings. I used Bel-Ray water proof grease that I had on hand from my motorcycle days, it specifically mentioned it is well suited to bushings. They even have a MSDS for it on their website. Remember you don't want to go through all of this work to find out you used the wrong grease do you? Take your time researching this project.
The VB and P bushings did not come with grease like they apparently used to.
Pfadt - can't comment.
My understanding is that the VB and P bushings are graphite impregnated - the intent of the grease is to allow easier install of the internal steel sleeve but also to allow time for the metal sleeve to seat into the inside diameter of the poly bushing. Apparently the graphite is your long term lubricant.
[c] Where to grease during the install? My understanding is that the outside diameter of the bushing (that mates to the aluminum control arm) should be installed dry. The rotation is between the outside diameter of the metal sleeve and the inside diameter of the bushing, and if appropriate (some bushings have outside metal bushing caps) between the bushing cap and the outer surface of the bushing.
[d] Cleanliness of the post removed OEM bushing area's in the control arms: See [c] above. Personally I felt that if I am installing the bushings dry into the control arms, and to avoid any possibly of squeaking between these surfaces - I cleaned the control arm bushing areas very well. I used razor blades to remove under coating (my car was undercoated before I purchased it) on outside surfaces by the outside edges of the bushings/control arms, a dremel with a small wire cone wheel on the inside control arms surfaces, brake cleaner fluid, and lots of shop towels.
[e] Grease zerks or not for the bushings? See [a & b] above. Personally with the VB and P's, there are no grease channels. So it made no sense to me to add grease zerks to grease the outside surface of the busing-to-inside surface of the aluminum control arm. I've read that some have drilled a hole thru the bushing to provide grease to the outside surface of the steel sleeve. Personally: I am going to trust the vendor and see what happens. I feel I installed the product correctly and my cleanliness was very good, I want to see what happens.
[f] Pressing out OEM bushings (other than front upper control arms). Not a big deal.
Go get the 3 jaw 5 ton gear puller from Sears: Posi Lock Model 104. Another member posted a picture on it.
It works like a champ on all the rear control arm bushings (will not work on the lower rear shock bushing if you are changing this one out).
It works great on one of the front lower bushings, the other takes a bit of work but can be done with the above puller. One of the lower front bushings has a metal snap ring or something around the outside diameter of the control arm surface and a bushing cap.
Drill out the center of the bushing cap first and remove.
Take some channel locks and carefully pull the snap ring (embedded close to the surface of the rubber) towards the inside diameter of the bolt hole in 3 or 4 locations to make room for the 3 claws to grab around the surface of the aluminum control arm. Once you get it all lined up, it'll work.
I had the rear shock bushing pressed out at a muffler shop that had a floor mounted press for $5 each.
[g] Removal of front upper control arm dog bones / bushings: Easy but smelly.
Mount control arm in vice (I used wood blocks) but not by the control arm dog bones.
Go back and forth heating the lower surface of control arm bushing area and the upper bushing area with the mapp gas torch. Once you get some smoke from the rubber bushing where you're heating it and possibly a small little fire going
, grab some channel locks and twist & pull at the same time on the aluminum dog bone. The whole bushing/aluminum dog bone will pull right out. Throw outside the garage to let it cool down and smoke out the neighbors.
Continue with the other dog bone/bushing.
I tried twisting & pulling without using the torch to no avail. Once you do one with the torch, its really really easy.
[h] VB and P rear lower shock bushing: There is a small bolt kit for the regular C5 and a large bolt kit for the Z06.
My 04 C5Z had a 16mm x 2.0 x 100 mm long lower shock bolt.
After exchanging to the large bolt bushing kit, the inside diameter of the steel VB and P bushing sleeve was still too small for the 16 mm bolt. I had to take it down to the machine shop and have it bored to 5/8" inside diameter ($5 each).
[i] Length of factory 16mm rear lower shock bolt is too short when I went to install the Bilestein sport shocks. The thickness of the steel clevis material at the base of the Bilestein shock is thicker than the OEM shock. The inside-to-inside dimension between the clevis mount surfaces is exactly the same between the two shocks, so it mounts up fine with the bushing kit.
When I went to torque down the bolt, because the clevis material is thicker I could only get 1/2 of the nut threads to engage the bolt. I've always believed this is bad practice, especially on this bolt that is supposed to be torqued to approx 160 ft lbs or so.
Its also Grade 9.8. I went to Tacoma Screw (local bolt vendor) and could only get off the shelf a grade 10.8 or 8.8 and only 110 mm. I wanted 105 mm.
I ended up going with the 10.8 Grade 110 mm bolt and as a bonus added a washer between the bolt head and the nut so it didn't mar up the paint on the Bilestein shock clevis area's. Fits just fine with the wheel on. Plenty of room.
[j] Ball Joints: this was a good thread where LG, Pfadt and Zip made comments.
[1] it is questionable if the lower Moog Ball joints are intended for the C5. Rumor has it, they were intended for the C4. It appears that they have been used successfully by members of this board on the C5. They are heavy duty.
[2] How to remove and replace the ball joints? Really the question should be: are the replacement ball joints outside diameter typical of the OEM ball joints or are they over-sized to allow a cold press in/out?
Remember the ball joints are a interference fit.
The factory most likely originally heated up the non-bushed aluminum control arm (aluminum expands more than steel), then installed the steel ball joints to avoid shearing the aluminum tapered bore with the steel ball joint. Then they probably installed the rubber bushings after the control arm cooled down.
[i] Pfadt lower ball joints are over-sized to allow a cold press in/out.
But once you've done a cold press in/out, you could have sheared some aluminum off the taper bore of the control arm and possibly jeopardized the integrity of the interference fit if you ever went back to a OEM diameter ball joint after-wards. These also do not come with a factory dust boot. I used these in my rear lower control arms, but reused the OEM dust boots that are the same outside diameter as the mounted ball joint. I then wrapped the dust boot and the exposed surface of the ball joint at the top of the control arm with 4 layers of 1500 deg reflective heat tape. Then cinched it down with a plastic zap strap - this may melt off so I am prepared to go back in with safety wire if I need to.
[ii] Zip (upper & lower) products are OEM diameter, so you should heat the control arm for removal/replacement
[iii] Raybestos (upper) - these appeared to be OEM diameter, but mine were in the freezer when I was measuring them so I can't be sure.
[iv] Moog (lower) - same notes as [iii]
[3] Heating the control arms for removal/replacement:
First: Freeze the replacement ball joints and leave them in the freezer to the last minute that you need one. Remember this is a interference fit. The more tolerance you can get the better. They expand pretty quick when warming up.
Second: I did this after the control arms were already striped of the OEM bushings, and cleaned (both the bushing inside/outside area's and a general cleaning of the control arm).
Third: Prep the ball joint for removal - remove the old dust boot and clean out as much grease as you can to minimize smoke and the grease catching on fire. Once you get it hot, the OEM ball joint plastic internal seating material will start weeping out around the ball joint conical bolt area. At that point, you'll know its just starting to get hot enough for removal. You'll still have some more heating to do though.
Fourth: Remember when you are heating a control arm, the large control arm is a pretty good heat sink. Using a Mapp Gas Turbo Torch (flame wraps around pipe during brazing etc), I heated mostly the lower ball joint area of the control arm for a good 10 or 15 minutes before the ball joint could be removed.
Installing the Pfadt Ball joints in the back lower control arms: I had to press it in for the last 1/4" seating into the control arm. But the heating allowed it to be installed far enough in that I wasn't concerned with alignment issue's of the taper bores of the ball joint/control arm for the final press.
The front lower ball joint install: I used Zip Ball joints (I mistakenly pressed out the rear lower control arm ball joints cold so I didn't trust the final interference fit if I used Zip ball joints hence why I went with the over sized Pfadt ball joints in the back). I got one of the two front lower ball joints replaced by torch only. The right front lower I thought I had the control arm hot enough to install the Zip Ball joint, but I kept test fitting. I suddenly found the new ball joint too warm that I didn't trust I could get the lower control hot enough in the region of the taper bore because of the large heat sink of the control arm. I stopped for the night, put the new ball joint in the freezer and planned to start over in the morning when I was fresh and mentally not frustrated. I decided to try something different in the morning to over come the heat sink problem. I heated the bare aluminum control arm in the oven at 400 deg F for 40 minutes to ensure I had the whole control arm up to temp first. Then I went back to work with the torch on the joint. At the last minute I pulled the ball joint from the freezer and tried again. I only got about 1/8" into the control arm. I think the tolerance of the female control arm taper on this arm was very tight, so I decided at that point to rush and press fit it in the rest of the way. It worked, I cheered and had a beer.
Spindles (upper ball joints at all 4 corners): The 3 hub/bearing mounting bolts are T-55 on the C5Z. I believe they are T-50 on the C5, but not 100% sure. Strip the knuckle down just to the bare aluminum piece that holds the upper ball joint. Be careful, and label all parts. I believe the front hubs/bearings are different than the rears for the ABS sensors. Once you have the striped down spindle/ball joint part only, its a small heat sink and the process of using the torch for removal/replacement goes smoothly and much easier than the lower control arms - but still go with frozen replacement ball joints for the process. Make this as easy as possible for yourself during this stressful (at least for me) process.
Ball joints general comments:
[1] You will find comments from members that they pressed in/out their Moog/Raybestos ball joints cold with no problems and have done it on multiple cars. I am sure that's true. But remember there are tolerance's to engineering/manufacturing. And maybe they just haven't stressed the parts enough driving or maybe they have. Who knows? I've provided some good information for you to consider during your education process and only you can make the right decision that your little voice in the back of your head is comfortable with.
[2] With all the above info, it probably makes sense why you can't buy a replacement ball joint from GM. The only way they could do it were to provide an over sized ball joint by I believe around +0.005 inches to press in/out cold. If they didn't provide a oversized ball joint, you would have to heat the control arm and possibly destroy the factory rubber bushings in the control arm. I never had a chance to talk to Zip if they have successfully heated the control arms with factory bushings.
With the information I have to date of writing this: To me this comes down to the following major decision of bushings and ball joints:
- replace lowers with Pfadt if you want to stick with OEM bushings. But you are going to have to jerry rig a dust boot possibly. Pfadt says they are designed for race cars and just grease them during regular servicing and that they are all steel and you don't need to worry about damaging a plastic seat like a OEM ball joint. But I am a daily driver rain or shine and I wasn't comfortable going with that, especially when they are $125 each.
- replace lowers with OEM sized Zip ball joints and change out to poly bushings due to having to heat the control arms. But then are you going to replace the upper control arms with Poly? Remember this is a suspension system. Sure you could do it, but this isn't a Kia, its a Corvette - a 175 mph performance car. Do it right and match the parts, that's just my opinion.
[k] Pressing in poly bushings:
If you've prepped and cleaned the control arm bores good, they pressed in dry by hand. One of mine I needed a vice, but I think that was just manufacturing tolerance of the control arms.
[l] Pressing in new poly inner steel bushings:
** do not press the steel sleeve into the bushing until you test fit it into the female side of the joint in the car.
Most of my female inside dimensions were smaller than the outside length of the steel sleeves - they are not going to go in. You may be able to hammer them in, but you'll probably damage the aluminum on the female cradle OR you may not be able to move the control arm during final alignment adjustments.
This is where it sucks. Its trial and error and I had to grind down about 3/4 of the steel sleeves slightly to fit. Now if you have a jaws of life, maybe you wouldn't have to or maybe you're smarter than me on this - tell us all a better way to do it if you know how.
Once you get it test fitted, then press it in.
BE CAREFUL and look and make sure if the steel sleeve mates up to two bushing caps on that joint - if it does than you are test fitting all 3.
Bushing caps I believe are meant to be a tight fit to the inside bore of the steel sleeve. Again this is where it sucks - but it sucks less if you test fit the 3 before you press it all into the bushing and try and fit the aluminum arm and find out she ain't gonna go. It's easier to pull apart one of the bushing caps from the steel sleeve to grind that end then trying to get it all apart once its in the bushing - you'll probably have to damage the poly bushing slightly to pry the bushing cap off the inner sleeve in that case. **
[1] take one of your old OEM bushings and use the torch and heat up the inside diameter of the factory steel bushing in it until the rubber melts around it and you can push it out with a screw driver or something. Clean up the outer surface back to exposed steel, use some brake cleaner on the surface so you know its clean. Use this for future below.
[2] most of the steel sleeves can be pushed in by hand most of the way. Grease up the outer surface of the steel sleeve, and lots of grease on the inside diameter of the bushing. Most of the grease will be wiped off the steel sleeve, but remember the surface on the steel sleeve is not perfectly flat. Micro little pools of grease will be left on the outer steel surface. This will help support and lubricate the rotating pieces while the two surfaces seat/break in. The bushings are 2 piece, therefore the two inside holes may not line up well on some of them, use the vice to press in the sleeve on those.
[3] Sometimes some of the bushings sleeves with or without bushing caps even if you test fitted above may need some final grinding when your test fit the arm. At least that was my experience. This is where [1] above helps to hammer out the steel sleeve. I used it a fair amount.
[m] Pfadt Camber kit:
[1] The main driving force of installing this kit is to avoid the problem of the lower eccentric bolts being knocked out of alignment at some point. It also makes it easy to adjust front camber by removing/adding shims in the upper control arms at the track. You are going to pay up front in sweat blood and tears during the install/alignment phase for part of this kit, and its going to cost you a bit more during the alignment for the extra time but I think overall its a worthwhile investment. I am hoping that my alignment is now locked in (I am a daily driver only at this point of time) and I paid a bit more up front for long term reduction in alignment costs. Maybe I am wrong on this last point, but only time will tell or someone else more educated on the subject will chime in.
[2] Front upper control arm stud install: install the studs with the shorter end into the frame of the car. Use the provided loc-tite, I let this sit over night to dry before proceeding with the upper control arm install the next day, plan ahead. Get a couple extra nuts to double nut the stud for the install, since the final nuts are nylock and try not to use them to many times.
[3] Rear lower control arm camber bolts: Its a b*tch to remove the rear lower control arm camber bolt during demo, the new bolt during the re-install or when removing/replacing shims during the alignment. You've got to remove almost all of the gas tank heat shield mounting bolts and you are still going to swear at it. During the first install of the new camber bolt do not have the other lower control arm mounting bolt installed, otherwise you are going to find it very hard to get the shim lined up and in the grooves and get the bolt in the initial hole.
The problem is that the bolt head faces the front of the car.
I am not sure its safe or at minimum good practice to flip the bolt head to face the rear of the car, I am thinking with the torque of this car it's probably a good idea to keep the bolt head facing the front of the car. Please - Think carefully about the potential safety of this while your swearing at it and want to take a short cut by flipping the bolt around. Maybe its fine and maybe lots of people have done it, comments welcome as usual.
You are also reducing the torque down with the new bolt, this maybe to avoid crushing the aluminum shim. Again think carefully before flipping the bolt around.
I am thinking you might have room to go for a longer bolt and it appears that you have room to double nut it if you flipped it around, but my little voice in my head says don't do it. I get on the power pretty good with the Z06, and in my mind I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I personally think that if you plan to change camber at the track at the rear wheels, stay with the eccentric bolts in the back. It's a b*tch to change it.
Remember you are paying a price up front for the thought that this will avoid the problem of the eccentric camber bolts from being knocked out of adjustment at some point.
Its even worse for the alignment tech to swap out the bolt to swap alignment shims, he was fighting the bolted up spring since he corner balanced the car first. I think he cheated slightly and got the bolt in far enough to grab it with the nut at the 2nd shim and used the rattle gun to bring it home for the last final seat. I looked the other way for this. He probably took a little meat out of the top of the shim in the center area, so I was ok with it.
That's all I am going to say about the rear camber bolt.
[4] Order more block shims from Pfadt before going to the expensive performance corner balance/alignment. If I understand the process correctly, the front lower control arm shims are your major adjustment for camber, you can tweak the camber with the number of shims at the top of the control arms. If you need more than 4 of the same shim in the car (can be used for the front or back during alignment) you could possibly run into the condition I ran into. We didn't have enough of #2 shim, which meant we needed to add more shims in the upper control arms to get down to my target of -1 camber. But we then ran out of stud length on the upper control arms. I didn't want to pull the studs at this point (or the future) and put in longer ones. So I settled with -1.8 camber on the front for now with Zero Toe. Remember the clock ($) is ticking when you are at the alignment shop, you want all your parts there.
[5] Need 3/8" washers for the upper control arms for both inside the fender to dog bone area, but also to put between the outside of the dog bone and the provided nylock nut.
Get about 30 or so stainless steel ones at minimum. If you are going for a non aggressive camber, you'll need to put 2 each behind each dog bone on the stud and I used 1 each between the dog bone and the nylock. These are not provided by Pfadt but is discussed in their instructions.
[n] front adjustment spring adjusting bolt: please check this before you reassemble/mount the front suspension. My left one was seized. I left liquid wrench on it over night and still couldn't turn it with the electric impact wrench (good for 150 ft lbs). I had to get out the pneumatic impact good for 300 ft lbs to get it to move.
They are reverse thread.
Once you get them moving, use some never seize on the threads.
I also suggest (but not sure if its good practice) to grease the bottom of the bushing where it sits on the upper surface of the control arm.
Also: be smarter than me on this next point. I adjusted my front lowering bolts ahead of time to my target ride height. My suspension settled more than I expected during the 6 mile two lane road drive to the alignment shop. He managed to turn the bolt to go from my 10 threads showing on top to 5 threads during the alignment, but at that point the bolt was turning 1/4 turn and the bushing was turning 1/8 turn and I didn't want to strip the head of the 10mm bolt. It's easier to lower the car than raise it, just set the ride height up to maximum before you connect up the front suspension as a unit and be done with it.
[o] final torquing of the bushing/control arm mounting bolts: final torque is apparently supposed to be applied while the suspension is pre-loaded with the weight of the car.
I am not sure of the logic of this, but it may affect how far the car preliminarily drops.
If you are doing this on jack stands, carefully lift up one corner only of the car with a jack (applied at the lower ball joint I assume using a wood block or something to protect the bottom of the ball joint) until that corner is a 1/8" or so off the jack stand. Torque those control arm bushings only.
Lower that corner of the car and move to the other side of the car and complete the same process (I completed the rear end of the car first, then when that project was complete I did the front end of the car).
I did not do this and this came up when my car apparently dropped a significant amount from my stated ride heights that I measure at the house and their preliminary measurements at the alignment shop.
[p] rear spring mounting bolts were way to long that came with the VB and P kit to allow folks to slam the car. I had to cut mine about 1.75 inches initially (I was trying for approx 1" drop max from factory ride heights). Once I was in the ride height checking phase and tightened the bolts, I still felt they were too long and might hit the clamp on the outer CV joint boot. I had to pull the bolts and cut another nut width off.
Turns out my ride height was off, and they had to lower the car 1" or so but I was fine on the bolts.
[q] VB and P sent out the wrong upper bushings for the rear lower control arm height adjusting bolts. The bottoms fit like a glove, the uppers were 2" in diameter and should have been 1.75" if I remember, identical to the lower one that fits underneath the spring. Check this before you start the rear end project. Otherwise a delay to get the right bushing.
Part 2
[r] new upper front dog bones could not be worked around the middle of the front shock tower like the old dog bones could. They are longer, therefore you have less inside free dimension. Without modifying the shock tower outside ribbing (ie. bending them slightly), there is a gap at the top of the shock tower that will let the dog bones slide down behind the ribbing. Before mounting the spindle/knuckle onto the lower ball joint, mount the upper control arm to the knuckle off the car ahead of this - bonus much easier to torque the upper ball joint down while out of the car.
[s] Installing shocks:
Rear - Install upper mounts first, and a little loose. Jack up lower control arm and muscle the shock lower mount into place and insert the bolt. Tighten upper, then lower shock mounting bolts. I then continued jacking up the lower control arm if necessary to install the upper control arms.
Front: Install upper shock mount first to the front shock tower before mounting upper control arm/knuckle onto lower ball joint. Install knuckle to lower ball joint (at the same time make sure the dog bones slide over the top of the shock tower and out of the way of the upper control arm studs) and tighten down lower ball joint nut. Jack up lower control arm to where the lower shock mounting holes line up elevation wise with its seats/holes on the lower control arm, muscle/line up lower shock mount holes to start the lower shock mount bolts and tighten. Jack lower control up slightly more and mount dog bones to car. Much quicker & less interference this way then attaching upper control arm to knuckle etc in stages.
[t] My used T-1 sway bars (front and rear) required a little shimming (via washers) underneath the new poly bushing compression plates to avoid 100% binding. Make sure you greased up the poly bushing internal surfaces good, make sure the sway bar surface that meets the poly bushing is nice and clean. I am debating whether my rear sway bar is too loose (I can rotate it without the end links on pretty easy by one hand). My front sway bar takes some effort with one hand. I was told the front was good, the rear was too loose. There apparently has to be some resistance to seat the sway bar into the bushing, makes sense just like how the metal internal sleeves inside the control arm bushings eventually seat to the poly bushings.
I know my adjustable end links rattle a bit more in the rear than the fronts right now, so I am going to pull out one of two total shim washers on each rear bushing compression plate and see what happens.
[u] I mounted my used T-1 sway bars at the house and just installed the factory Z06 end links to get over to the alignment shop. Installing the adjustable end links was at the end of the corner balance/alignment to ensure they were not pre-loading the suspension and upsetting the final corner balance.
[v] Know what you want for your suspension settings before going to the performance alignment shop. I would however suggest you ask their opinion if you are not a seasoned veteran (I wasn't). With all of my little issue's going on, I needed their help and recommendations to set the car up because of limitations during the alignment (ie front ride height bolt issue's, not enough shims etc). If you are not a seasoned veteran, and you've done a good job doing your homework on who you are going to get the alignment - these guys do it every day. They just might be a good resource to listen to. Just a thought.
[w] Current impressions of car after 3 days of driving:
Much much tighter left/right, no body roll, much better direct communication of the road, a little more high frequency vibrations coming through (I have a carpeted plywood demising wall between the cockpit area and the trunk that likes to do this staticky kind of crackle between the carpet/velcro), overall road noise doesn't appear to be higher than before, car doesn't get unsettled on bumps at all, and doesn't dart like it used to sometimes on the freeway.
Overall I am very happy with the end results so far, but lets not kid ourselves - this is a performance mod. It doesn't float over bumps anymore, but its no problem as a daily driver.
I haven't really had a chance to push it.
But it turns quickly left/right like it is on rails, frankly I don't think you could work the suspension to its limits on the street!
[x] Be prepared to spend in the neighborhood of $500 for the corner balance/performance alignment, especially if you are going with the camber shim kit.
Look at it this way - you just spent a fair amount of money, blood, sweat, tears & swearing at the car: the most important thing you can do now is set the car up to maximize everything you just did to ensure it all works together in harmony. Don't skimp on this step if your not a seasoned veteran who can do this yourself.
It just doesn't make sense to me - it's worth it, trust me.
Once the check is written and you're driving around a month later you'll be thankful you did the alignment right.
[y] Do you have a leaky butt?? If so now is the time to doctor that little issue up. I did my left rear a year ago, right still looks great. But another thing to consider in your planning stages, its all going to be apart anyways in the rear end.
May continue on if I can think of anymore.
Andy
I promised our members that I would write up a lessons learned from my project.
Unfortunately I don't have pictures as the wife had the camera during the project (sorry all).
I will do my best from memory to run you all through my experience.
There are separate threads by me on the ball joint issue, greasing the rear leaf spring perch bushings/ensuring the spring is properly loaded etc in the Auto-X section of the board. You'll just have to do a little search.
That being said, I'll run through the project particulars and then follow into steps that were of concern.
Foreword:
I started this project at the rear end of the car then moved to the front.
The rear end of the car is way more difficult due to the number of parts involved or reconnecting up.
I won't for example go into how to separate the axle stub shafts from the spindles - you'll have to do a search on that (ie. there was a good write up by junkman I believe).
Also, I assume you know how to jack the car up and put on jack stands, how to handle basic tools etc.
This write up is about specific gotcha's about the job.
THINGS TO CONSIDER:
[1] Know your limits - the abilities of the weekend warrior span a tremendous range. I would rate this project a 4 out of 5 for difficulty or at least from a frustration or time consuming perspective. If you don't have a large pool of tools, a bench grinder, mapp gas turbo torch, a garage, decent hydraulic jack, jack stands for the front and rear, dremel, files, 2nd vehicle during the project, impact wrench(s) etc - you are in for trouble/delays/frustration.
[2] If you plan to take this project on: go in with a positive flexible "can do" attitude and plan to take the car out of service for a good 4 weekends or so. Yes you may be the man and can crank this out in a couple weekends. But things will come up. You'll only want to do this project once. Rushing through it making a mistake that you'll regret later on, resulting in a time consuming fix and possibly have to do another expensive performance alignment will not be pleasant.
[3] Know what your long term goals are: Carefully research the long lead parts, consumables, special tools & possibly outside resources (ie. back up machine shop) that you'll need. Have these on hand or lined up before you start. I spent some extra $ & frustration flying in redundant parts when the 1st parts didn't arrive at the planned "just in time" delivery, as well as ordering the wrong parts in the first place. Then you are returning parts for credit etc.
[4] I am a preventative maintenance kind of guy. While I have things apart, I like to replace potential items just because it is a peace of mind thing for me and it's quick to do since you are already in there. In this case, I felt the suspension is a system working in harmony. Only deviating from OEM rear suspension I felt would not add to the performance of the car, I felt if anything I could be at risk of reducing the handling capabilities of the car.
CAR & MAJOR PART SPECIFICS:
2004 C5Z w/48K miles on it.
Car is stock other than Bassani X-pipe, Goodrich SS brake lines w/high temp fluid, Pioneer Z3 navigation system, tinted windows.
Symptoms:
-Rear end felt loose during accelerating hard, suspected failing ball joints and/or bushings.
-Right rear upper control arm was gouging into the factory shock boot (chunks were missing from the shock boot which gave me the impression that I had large play in the rear suspension).
-Right rear tire while jacked up off the ground had significant play
Ordered the following parts originally:
-4 lower Moog ball joints
-4 upper Raybestos ball joints (other threads can tell you where to get these)
-VB and P:
[a]Xtreme Touring Kit (minus springs)
[b]Upper shock bushings
[c]Lower rear shock bushings
[d] swapped stock C5Z bushings for T1 sway bar bushings
-used T-1 Sway Bars
- Pfadt Camber kit
GOTCHA'S OR LESSONS LEARNED:
[a] Do your own research on whether to go with Pfadt or VB and P bushings.
Pfadt apparently have grease grooves cut into the bushings to allow future greasing if they squeak, VB and P do not. Then you'll read conflicting information on both brands as to if they squeak or not. Please keep in the back of your mind if the people installed them correctly or not.
[b] Grease - research what grease to use during the bushing install. I have read some information on the internet (always do your own research) that petroleum based grease's could reduce the life span of the poly bushings. I used Bel-Ray water proof grease that I had on hand from my motorcycle days, it specifically mentioned it is well suited to bushings. They even have a MSDS for it on their website. Remember you don't want to go through all of this work to find out you used the wrong grease do you? Take your time researching this project.
The VB and P bushings did not come with grease like they apparently used to.
Pfadt - can't comment.
My understanding is that the VB and P bushings are graphite impregnated - the intent of the grease is to allow easier install of the internal steel sleeve but also to allow time for the metal sleeve to seat into the inside diameter of the poly bushing. Apparently the graphite is your long term lubricant.
[c] Where to grease during the install? My understanding is that the outside diameter of the bushing (that mates to the aluminum control arm) should be installed dry. The rotation is between the outside diameter of the metal sleeve and the inside diameter of the bushing, and if appropriate (some bushings have outside metal bushing caps) between the bushing cap and the outer surface of the bushing.
[d] Cleanliness of the post removed OEM bushing area's in the control arms: See [c] above. Personally I felt that if I am installing the bushings dry into the control arms, and to avoid any possibly of squeaking between these surfaces - I cleaned the control arm bushing areas very well. I used razor blades to remove under coating (my car was undercoated before I purchased it) on outside surfaces by the outside edges of the bushings/control arms, a dremel with a small wire cone wheel on the inside control arms surfaces, brake cleaner fluid, and lots of shop towels.
[e] Grease zerks or not for the bushings? See [a & b] above. Personally with the VB and P's, there are no grease channels. So it made no sense to me to add grease zerks to grease the outside surface of the busing-to-inside surface of the aluminum control arm. I've read that some have drilled a hole thru the bushing to provide grease to the outside surface of the steel sleeve. Personally: I am going to trust the vendor and see what happens. I feel I installed the product correctly and my cleanliness was very good, I want to see what happens.
[f] Pressing out OEM bushings (other than front upper control arms). Not a big deal.
Go get the 3 jaw 5 ton gear puller from Sears: Posi Lock Model 104. Another member posted a picture on it.
It works like a champ on all the rear control arm bushings (will not work on the lower rear shock bushing if you are changing this one out).
It works great on one of the front lower bushings, the other takes a bit of work but can be done with the above puller. One of the lower front bushings has a metal snap ring or something around the outside diameter of the control arm surface and a bushing cap.
Drill out the center of the bushing cap first and remove.
Take some channel locks and carefully pull the snap ring (embedded close to the surface of the rubber) towards the inside diameter of the bolt hole in 3 or 4 locations to make room for the 3 claws to grab around the surface of the aluminum control arm. Once you get it all lined up, it'll work.
I had the rear shock bushing pressed out at a muffler shop that had a floor mounted press for $5 each.
[g] Removal of front upper control arm dog bones / bushings: Easy but smelly.
Mount control arm in vice (I used wood blocks) but not by the control arm dog bones.
Go back and forth heating the lower surface of control arm bushing area and the upper bushing area with the mapp gas torch. Once you get some smoke from the rubber bushing where you're heating it and possibly a small little fire going
, grab some channel locks and twist & pull at the same time on the aluminum dog bone. The whole bushing/aluminum dog bone will pull right out. Throw outside the garage to let it cool down and smoke out the neighbors. Continue with the other dog bone/bushing.
I tried twisting & pulling without using the torch to no avail. Once you do one with the torch, its really really easy.
[h] VB and P rear lower shock bushing: There is a small bolt kit for the regular C5 and a large bolt kit for the Z06.
My 04 C5Z had a 16mm x 2.0 x 100 mm long lower shock bolt.
After exchanging to the large bolt bushing kit, the inside diameter of the steel VB and P bushing sleeve was still too small for the 16 mm bolt. I had to take it down to the machine shop and have it bored to 5/8" inside diameter ($5 each).
[i] Length of factory 16mm rear lower shock bolt is too short when I went to install the Bilestein sport shocks. The thickness of the steel clevis material at the base of the Bilestein shock is thicker than the OEM shock. The inside-to-inside dimension between the clevis mount surfaces is exactly the same between the two shocks, so it mounts up fine with the bushing kit.
When I went to torque down the bolt, because the clevis material is thicker I could only get 1/2 of the nut threads to engage the bolt. I've always believed this is bad practice, especially on this bolt that is supposed to be torqued to approx 160 ft lbs or so.
Its also Grade 9.8. I went to Tacoma Screw (local bolt vendor) and could only get off the shelf a grade 10.8 or 8.8 and only 110 mm. I wanted 105 mm.
I ended up going with the 10.8 Grade 110 mm bolt and as a bonus added a washer between the bolt head and the nut so it didn't mar up the paint on the Bilestein shock clevis area's. Fits just fine with the wheel on. Plenty of room.
[j] Ball Joints: this was a good thread where LG, Pfadt and Zip made comments.
[1] it is questionable if the lower Moog Ball joints are intended for the C5. Rumor has it, they were intended for the C4. It appears that they have been used successfully by members of this board on the C5. They are heavy duty.
[2] How to remove and replace the ball joints? Really the question should be: are the replacement ball joints outside diameter typical of the OEM ball joints or are they over-sized to allow a cold press in/out?
Remember the ball joints are a interference fit.
The factory most likely originally heated up the non-bushed aluminum control arm (aluminum expands more than steel), then installed the steel ball joints to avoid shearing the aluminum tapered bore with the steel ball joint. Then they probably installed the rubber bushings after the control arm cooled down.
[i] Pfadt lower ball joints are over-sized to allow a cold press in/out.
But once you've done a cold press in/out, you could have sheared some aluminum off the taper bore of the control arm and possibly jeopardized the integrity of the interference fit if you ever went back to a OEM diameter ball joint after-wards. These also do not come with a factory dust boot. I used these in my rear lower control arms, but reused the OEM dust boots that are the same outside diameter as the mounted ball joint. I then wrapped the dust boot and the exposed surface of the ball joint at the top of the control arm with 4 layers of 1500 deg reflective heat tape. Then cinched it down with a plastic zap strap - this may melt off so I am prepared to go back in with safety wire if I need to.
[ii] Zip (upper & lower) products are OEM diameter, so you should heat the control arm for removal/replacement
[iii] Raybestos (upper) - these appeared to be OEM diameter, but mine were in the freezer when I was measuring them so I can't be sure.
[iv] Moog (lower) - same notes as [iii]
[3] Heating the control arms for removal/replacement:
First: Freeze the replacement ball joints and leave them in the freezer to the last minute that you need one. Remember this is a interference fit. The more tolerance you can get the better. They expand pretty quick when warming up.
Second: I did this after the control arms were already striped of the OEM bushings, and cleaned (both the bushing inside/outside area's and a general cleaning of the control arm).
Third: Prep the ball joint for removal - remove the old dust boot and clean out as much grease as you can to minimize smoke and the grease catching on fire. Once you get it hot, the OEM ball joint plastic internal seating material will start weeping out around the ball joint conical bolt area. At that point, you'll know its just starting to get hot enough for removal. You'll still have some more heating to do though.
Fourth: Remember when you are heating a control arm, the large control arm is a pretty good heat sink. Using a Mapp Gas Turbo Torch (flame wraps around pipe during brazing etc), I heated mostly the lower ball joint area of the control arm for a good 10 or 15 minutes before the ball joint could be removed.
Installing the Pfadt Ball joints in the back lower control arms: I had to press it in for the last 1/4" seating into the control arm. But the heating allowed it to be installed far enough in that I wasn't concerned with alignment issue's of the taper bores of the ball joint/control arm for the final press.
The front lower ball joint install: I used Zip Ball joints (I mistakenly pressed out the rear lower control arm ball joints cold so I didn't trust the final interference fit if I used Zip ball joints hence why I went with the over sized Pfadt ball joints in the back). I got one of the two front lower ball joints replaced by torch only. The right front lower I thought I had the control arm hot enough to install the Zip Ball joint, but I kept test fitting. I suddenly found the new ball joint too warm that I didn't trust I could get the lower control hot enough in the region of the taper bore because of the large heat sink of the control arm. I stopped for the night, put the new ball joint in the freezer and planned to start over in the morning when I was fresh and mentally not frustrated. I decided to try something different in the morning to over come the heat sink problem. I heated the bare aluminum control arm in the oven at 400 deg F for 40 minutes to ensure I had the whole control arm up to temp first. Then I went back to work with the torch on the joint. At the last minute I pulled the ball joint from the freezer and tried again. I only got about 1/8" into the control arm. I think the tolerance of the female control arm taper on this arm was very tight, so I decided at that point to rush and press fit it in the rest of the way. It worked, I cheered and had a beer.
Spindles (upper ball joints at all 4 corners): The 3 hub/bearing mounting bolts are T-55 on the C5Z. I believe they are T-50 on the C5, but not 100% sure. Strip the knuckle down just to the bare aluminum piece that holds the upper ball joint. Be careful, and label all parts. I believe the front hubs/bearings are different than the rears for the ABS sensors. Once you have the striped down spindle/ball joint part only, its a small heat sink and the process of using the torch for removal/replacement goes smoothly and much easier than the lower control arms - but still go with frozen replacement ball joints for the process. Make this as easy as possible for yourself during this stressful (at least for me) process.
Ball joints general comments:
[1] You will find comments from members that they pressed in/out their Moog/Raybestos ball joints cold with no problems and have done it on multiple cars. I am sure that's true. But remember there are tolerance's to engineering/manufacturing. And maybe they just haven't stressed the parts enough driving or maybe they have. Who knows? I've provided some good information for you to consider during your education process and only you can make the right decision that your little voice in the back of your head is comfortable with.
[2] With all the above info, it probably makes sense why you can't buy a replacement ball joint from GM. The only way they could do it were to provide an over sized ball joint by I believe around +0.005 inches to press in/out cold. If they didn't provide a oversized ball joint, you would have to heat the control arm and possibly destroy the factory rubber bushings in the control arm. I never had a chance to talk to Zip if they have successfully heated the control arms with factory bushings.
With the information I have to date of writing this: To me this comes down to the following major decision of bushings and ball joints:
- replace lowers with Pfadt if you want to stick with OEM bushings. But you are going to have to jerry rig a dust boot possibly. Pfadt says they are designed for race cars and just grease them during regular servicing and that they are all steel and you don't need to worry about damaging a plastic seat like a OEM ball joint. But I am a daily driver rain or shine and I wasn't comfortable going with that, especially when they are $125 each.
- replace lowers with OEM sized Zip ball joints and change out to poly bushings due to having to heat the control arms. But then are you going to replace the upper control arms with Poly? Remember this is a suspension system. Sure you could do it, but this isn't a Kia, its a Corvette - a 175 mph performance car. Do it right and match the parts, that's just my opinion.
[k] Pressing in poly bushings:
If you've prepped and cleaned the control arm bores good, they pressed in dry by hand. One of mine I needed a vice, but I think that was just manufacturing tolerance of the control arms.
[l] Pressing in new poly inner steel bushings:
** do not press the steel sleeve into the bushing until you test fit it into the female side of the joint in the car.
Most of my female inside dimensions were smaller than the outside length of the steel sleeves - they are not going to go in. You may be able to hammer them in, but you'll probably damage the aluminum on the female cradle OR you may not be able to move the control arm during final alignment adjustments.
This is where it sucks. Its trial and error and I had to grind down about 3/4 of the steel sleeves slightly to fit. Now if you have a jaws of life, maybe you wouldn't have to or maybe you're smarter than me on this - tell us all a better way to do it if you know how.
Once you get it test fitted, then press it in.
BE CAREFUL and look and make sure if the steel sleeve mates up to two bushing caps on that joint - if it does than you are test fitting all 3.
Bushing caps I believe are meant to be a tight fit to the inside bore of the steel sleeve. Again this is where it sucks - but it sucks less if you test fit the 3 before you press it all into the bushing and try and fit the aluminum arm and find out she ain't gonna go. It's easier to pull apart one of the bushing caps from the steel sleeve to grind that end then trying to get it all apart once its in the bushing - you'll probably have to damage the poly bushing slightly to pry the bushing cap off the inner sleeve in that case. **
[1] take one of your old OEM bushings and use the torch and heat up the inside diameter of the factory steel bushing in it until the rubber melts around it and you can push it out with a screw driver or something. Clean up the outer surface back to exposed steel, use some brake cleaner on the surface so you know its clean. Use this for future below.
[2] most of the steel sleeves can be pushed in by hand most of the way. Grease up the outer surface of the steel sleeve, and lots of grease on the inside diameter of the bushing. Most of the grease will be wiped off the steel sleeve, but remember the surface on the steel sleeve is not perfectly flat. Micro little pools of grease will be left on the outer steel surface. This will help support and lubricate the rotating pieces while the two surfaces seat/break in. The bushings are 2 piece, therefore the two inside holes may not line up well on some of them, use the vice to press in the sleeve on those.
[3] Sometimes some of the bushings sleeves with or without bushing caps even if you test fitted above may need some final grinding when your test fit the arm. At least that was my experience. This is where [1] above helps to hammer out the steel sleeve. I used it a fair amount.
[m] Pfadt Camber kit:
[1] The main driving force of installing this kit is to avoid the problem of the lower eccentric bolts being knocked out of alignment at some point. It also makes it easy to adjust front camber by removing/adding shims in the upper control arms at the track. You are going to pay up front in sweat blood and tears during the install/alignment phase for part of this kit, and its going to cost you a bit more during the alignment for the extra time but I think overall its a worthwhile investment. I am hoping that my alignment is now locked in (I am a daily driver only at this point of time) and I paid a bit more up front for long term reduction in alignment costs. Maybe I am wrong on this last point, but only time will tell or someone else more educated on the subject will chime in.
[2] Front upper control arm stud install: install the studs with the shorter end into the frame of the car. Use the provided loc-tite, I let this sit over night to dry before proceeding with the upper control arm install the next day, plan ahead. Get a couple extra nuts to double nut the stud for the install, since the final nuts are nylock and try not to use them to many times.
[3] Rear lower control arm camber bolts: Its a b*tch to remove the rear lower control arm camber bolt during demo, the new bolt during the re-install or when removing/replacing shims during the alignment. You've got to remove almost all of the gas tank heat shield mounting bolts and you are still going to swear at it. During the first install of the new camber bolt do not have the other lower control arm mounting bolt installed, otherwise you are going to find it very hard to get the shim lined up and in the grooves and get the bolt in the initial hole.
The problem is that the bolt head faces the front of the car.
I am not sure its safe or at minimum good practice to flip the bolt head to face the rear of the car, I am thinking with the torque of this car it's probably a good idea to keep the bolt head facing the front of the car. Please - Think carefully about the potential safety of this while your swearing at it and want to take a short cut by flipping the bolt around. Maybe its fine and maybe lots of people have done it, comments welcome as usual.
You are also reducing the torque down with the new bolt, this maybe to avoid crushing the aluminum shim. Again think carefully before flipping the bolt around.
I am thinking you might have room to go for a longer bolt and it appears that you have room to double nut it if you flipped it around, but my little voice in my head says don't do it. I get on the power pretty good with the Z06, and in my mind I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I personally think that if you plan to change camber at the track at the rear wheels, stay with the eccentric bolts in the back. It's a b*tch to change it.
Remember you are paying a price up front for the thought that this will avoid the problem of the eccentric camber bolts from being knocked out of adjustment at some point.
Its even worse for the alignment tech to swap out the bolt to swap alignment shims, he was fighting the bolted up spring since he corner balanced the car first. I think he cheated slightly and got the bolt in far enough to grab it with the nut at the 2nd shim and used the rattle gun to bring it home for the last final seat. I looked the other way for this. He probably took a little meat out of the top of the shim in the center area, so I was ok with it.
That's all I am going to say about the rear camber bolt.
[4] Order more block shims from Pfadt before going to the expensive performance corner balance/alignment. If I understand the process correctly, the front lower control arm shims are your major adjustment for camber, you can tweak the camber with the number of shims at the top of the control arms. If you need more than 4 of the same shim in the car (can be used for the front or back during alignment) you could possibly run into the condition I ran into. We didn't have enough of #2 shim, which meant we needed to add more shims in the upper control arms to get down to my target of -1 camber. But we then ran out of stud length on the upper control arms. I didn't want to pull the studs at this point (or the future) and put in longer ones. So I settled with -1.8 camber on the front for now with Zero Toe. Remember the clock ($) is ticking when you are at the alignment shop, you want all your parts there.
[5] Need 3/8" washers for the upper control arms for both inside the fender to dog bone area, but also to put between the outside of the dog bone and the provided nylock nut.
Get about 30 or so stainless steel ones at minimum. If you are going for a non aggressive camber, you'll need to put 2 each behind each dog bone on the stud and I used 1 each between the dog bone and the nylock. These are not provided by Pfadt but is discussed in their instructions.
[n] front adjustment spring adjusting bolt: please check this before you reassemble/mount the front suspension. My left one was seized. I left liquid wrench on it over night and still couldn't turn it with the electric impact wrench (good for 150 ft lbs). I had to get out the pneumatic impact good for 300 ft lbs to get it to move.
They are reverse thread.
Once you get them moving, use some never seize on the threads.
I also suggest (but not sure if its good practice) to grease the bottom of the bushing where it sits on the upper surface of the control arm.
Also: be smarter than me on this next point. I adjusted my front lowering bolts ahead of time to my target ride height. My suspension settled more than I expected during the 6 mile two lane road drive to the alignment shop. He managed to turn the bolt to go from my 10 threads showing on top to 5 threads during the alignment, but at that point the bolt was turning 1/4 turn and the bushing was turning 1/8 turn and I didn't want to strip the head of the 10mm bolt. It's easier to lower the car than raise it, just set the ride height up to maximum before you connect up the front suspension as a unit and be done with it.
[o] final torquing of the bushing/control arm mounting bolts: final torque is apparently supposed to be applied while the suspension is pre-loaded with the weight of the car.
I am not sure of the logic of this, but it may affect how far the car preliminarily drops.
If you are doing this on jack stands, carefully lift up one corner only of the car with a jack (applied at the lower ball joint I assume using a wood block or something to protect the bottom of the ball joint) until that corner is a 1/8" or so off the jack stand. Torque those control arm bushings only.
Lower that corner of the car and move to the other side of the car and complete the same process (I completed the rear end of the car first, then when that project was complete I did the front end of the car).
I did not do this and this came up when my car apparently dropped a significant amount from my stated ride heights that I measure at the house and their preliminary measurements at the alignment shop.
[p] rear spring mounting bolts were way to long that came with the VB and P kit to allow folks to slam the car. I had to cut mine about 1.75 inches initially (I was trying for approx 1" drop max from factory ride heights). Once I was in the ride height checking phase and tightened the bolts, I still felt they were too long and might hit the clamp on the outer CV joint boot. I had to pull the bolts and cut another nut width off.
Turns out my ride height was off, and they had to lower the car 1" or so but I was fine on the bolts.
[q] VB and P sent out the wrong upper bushings for the rear lower control arm height adjusting bolts. The bottoms fit like a glove, the uppers were 2" in diameter and should have been 1.75" if I remember, identical to the lower one that fits underneath the spring. Check this before you start the rear end project. Otherwise a delay to get the right bushing.
Part 2
[r] new upper front dog bones could not be worked around the middle of the front shock tower like the old dog bones could. They are longer, therefore you have less inside free dimension. Without modifying the shock tower outside ribbing (ie. bending them slightly), there is a gap at the top of the shock tower that will let the dog bones slide down behind the ribbing. Before mounting the spindle/knuckle onto the lower ball joint, mount the upper control arm to the knuckle off the car ahead of this - bonus much easier to torque the upper ball joint down while out of the car.
[s] Installing shocks:
Rear - Install upper mounts first, and a little loose. Jack up lower control arm and muscle the shock lower mount into place and insert the bolt. Tighten upper, then lower shock mounting bolts. I then continued jacking up the lower control arm if necessary to install the upper control arms.
Front: Install upper shock mount first to the front shock tower before mounting upper control arm/knuckle onto lower ball joint. Install knuckle to lower ball joint (at the same time make sure the dog bones slide over the top of the shock tower and out of the way of the upper control arm studs) and tighten down lower ball joint nut. Jack up lower control arm to where the lower shock mounting holes line up elevation wise with its seats/holes on the lower control arm, muscle/line up lower shock mount holes to start the lower shock mount bolts and tighten. Jack lower control up slightly more and mount dog bones to car. Much quicker & less interference this way then attaching upper control arm to knuckle etc in stages.
[t] My used T-1 sway bars (front and rear) required a little shimming (via washers) underneath the new poly bushing compression plates to avoid 100% binding. Make sure you greased up the poly bushing internal surfaces good, make sure the sway bar surface that meets the poly bushing is nice and clean. I am debating whether my rear sway bar is too loose (I can rotate it without the end links on pretty easy by one hand). My front sway bar takes some effort with one hand. I was told the front was good, the rear was too loose. There apparently has to be some resistance to seat the sway bar into the bushing, makes sense just like how the metal internal sleeves inside the control arm bushings eventually seat to the poly bushings.
I know my adjustable end links rattle a bit more in the rear than the fronts right now, so I am going to pull out one of two total shim washers on each rear bushing compression plate and see what happens.
[u] I mounted my used T-1 sway bars at the house and just installed the factory Z06 end links to get over to the alignment shop. Installing the adjustable end links was at the end of the corner balance/alignment to ensure they were not pre-loading the suspension and upsetting the final corner balance.
[v] Know what you want for your suspension settings before going to the performance alignment shop. I would however suggest you ask their opinion if you are not a seasoned veteran (I wasn't). With all of my little issue's going on, I needed their help and recommendations to set the car up because of limitations during the alignment (ie front ride height bolt issue's, not enough shims etc). If you are not a seasoned veteran, and you've done a good job doing your homework on who you are going to get the alignment - these guys do it every day. They just might
be a good resource to listen to. Just a thought. [w] Current impressions of car after 3 days of driving:
Much much tighter left/right, no body roll, much better direct communication of the road, a little more high frequency vibrations coming through (I have a carpeted plywood demising wall between the cockpit area and the trunk that likes to do this staticky kind of crackle between the carpet/velcro), overall road noise doesn't appear to be higher than before, car doesn't get unsettled on bumps at all, and doesn't dart like it used to sometimes on the freeway.
Overall I am very happy with the end results so far, but lets not kid ourselves - this is a performance mod. It doesn't float over bumps anymore, but its no problem as a daily driver.
I haven't really had a chance to push it.
But it turns quickly left/right like it is on rails, frankly I don't think you could work the suspension to its limits on the street!
[x] Be prepared to spend in the neighborhood of $500 for the corner balance/performance alignment, especially if you are going with the camber shim kit.
Look at it this way - you just spent a fair amount of money, blood, sweat, tears & swearing at the car: the most important thing you can do now is set the car up to maximize everything you just did to ensure it all works together in harmony. Don't skimp on this step if your not a seasoned veteran who can do this yourself.
It just doesn't make sense to me - it's worth it, trust me.
Once the check is written and you're driving around a month later you'll be thankful you did the alignment right.
[y] Do you have a leaky butt?? If so now is the time to doctor that little issue up. I did my left rear a year ago, right still looks great. But another thing to consider in your planning stages, its all going to be apart anyways in the rear end.
May continue on if I can think of anymore.
Andy
Last edited by andrewdonald1; 12-11-2010 at 02:53 PM.
12-10-2010, 12:15 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
12-10-2010, 02:35 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
12-10-2010, 04:02 PM
#6
Team Owner
12-10-2010, 08:03 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I set the rear Z06 stock end links on the middle hole to go down to the alignment shop and they mounted the new ones in the same hole, and the angle is pretty extreme (like a 45 deg elevation towards the back of the car if I remember right). I'll report back tomorrow after I catch up on some sleep. I am thinking maybe the sway bar is shifting transversely (left/right) maybe over small bumps when it hits only one of the wheels, but not sure... the education will continue.
how was this for a write up?
12-10-2010, 08:06 PM
#10
Team Owner
Not sure. I am going to look at it tomorrow. They mounted them.
I set the rear end links on the middle hole, and the angle is pretty extreme (like a 45 deg elevation towards the back of the car if I remember right). I'll report back tomorrow after I catch up on some sleep. I am thinking maybe the sway bar is shifting transversely (left/right) maybe over small bumps when it hits only one of the wheels, but not sure... the education will continue.
how was this for a write up?
I set the rear end links on the middle hole, and the angle is pretty extreme (like a 45 deg elevation towards the back of the car if I remember right). I'll report back tomorrow after I catch up on some sleep. I am thinking maybe the sway bar is shifting transversely (left/right) maybe over small bumps when it hits only one of the wheels, but not sure... the education will continue.
how was this for a write up?
tons of time to do it
I always let my T-1 bars move and have not let the bushings be tight. They float side to side and rotate with a good grip. I have never had a noise and after 50,000+ miles with them I have one small chip on each front bar where it hit the control arm probably. I have replaced the bushings 3-4 times.
If I don't get mine together soon I think I'll let the garbage man pick it up and make room in the garage.
Last edited by John Shiels; 12-10-2010 at 08:09 PM.
12-10-2010, 08:15 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
tons of time to do itI always let my T-1 bars move and have not let the bushings be tight. They float side to side and rotate with a good grip. I have never had a noise and after 50,000+ miles with them I have one small chip on each front bar where it hit the control arm probably. I have replaced the bushings 3-4 times.
If I don't get mine together soon I think I'll let the garbage man pick it up and make room in the garage.
12-10-2010, 10:03 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
12-11-2010, 08:19 AM
#14
Le Mans Master
Thanx for sharing! This will be a mod that I undertake someday. Whether I do it myself or turn the project over to the pros is to be seen. Regardless though, a great resource to have at hand 
12-11-2010, 01:03 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Removed one of the two washers from the rear sway bar busing compression clamp... end links still rattle but it's only when one wheel or both wheels hit some small quick bumps at a slower speed.. They are cinched down a bit when I tried to rotate them with the rear wheels off the ground. I suspect this is fine.
Last edited by andrewdonald1; 12-11-2010 at 02:21 PM.
12-11-2010, 01:16 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Update on Test Drive:
Its a balmy 38 deg F out right now, with slight patchy damp roads. I am running Firestone Wide Ovals (stock sizes) at 30 psi all around the car.
2 lane back country road
Very tight left/right transitions, no body roll, absorbs the typical back country road bumps/dips no problem, very very nice confidence inspiring suspension. No way I could really push it anywhere near its limits.
Empty parking lot behind distribution warehouse
Constantly in 3rd gear, pushing the car to transition left/right as fast as I can (mimicking maybe a auto-x course?), faster sweepers at the end to try the runs again (same weather/road conditions above):
Very very quick transitions left/right, no body roll, slight under-steer (suspect the colder temps & tires are the culprit here), excellent communication of what's happening at the road surface, generally the handling of the car is fantastic (and tight) and in my mind now is on par (or exceeds) with the capabilities of the stock engine & brakes (meaning I feel more comfortable pushing it harder now than I did before).
Overall very pleased with this upgrade. It is worth it.
Not sure it would even be worth going to coilovers for the street.
Yesterday (temperatures/road conditions where the same as above), just coming out of a parking lot (after sitting for a few hours so cold tires) onto the street I did get a bit of wheel hop as I got on it. I am thinking this maybe the tires being cold and the conditions above plus being the suspension has less play at the bushings.
No squeaks (knock on wood) after 500 miles.
Its a balmy 38 deg F out right now, with slight patchy damp roads. I am running Firestone Wide Ovals (stock sizes) at 30 psi all around the car.
2 lane back country road
Very tight left/right transitions, no body roll, absorbs the typical back country road bumps/dips no problem, very very nice confidence inspiring suspension. No way I could really push it anywhere near its limits.
Empty parking lot behind distribution warehouse
Constantly in 3rd gear, pushing the car to transition left/right as fast as I can (mimicking maybe a auto-x course?), faster sweepers at the end to try the runs again (same weather/road conditions above):
Very very quick transitions left/right, no body roll, slight under-steer (suspect the colder temps & tires are the culprit here), excellent communication of what's happening at the road surface, generally the handling of the car is fantastic (and tight) and in my mind now is on par (or exceeds) with the capabilities of the stock engine & brakes (meaning I feel more comfortable pushing it harder now than I did before).
Overall very pleased with this upgrade. It is worth it.
Not sure it would even be worth going to coilovers for the street.
Yesterday (temperatures/road conditions where the same as above), just coming out of a parking lot (after sitting for a few hours so cold tires) onto the street I did get a bit of wheel hop as I got on it. I am thinking this maybe the tires being cold and the conditions above plus being the suspension has less play at the bushings.
No squeaks (knock on wood) after 500 miles.
Last edited by andrewdonald1; 12-11-2010 at 01:40 PM.
12-11-2010, 09:57 PM
#17
Race Director
Mine are still quiet
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html
12-12-2010, 12:03 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Check out my adj link thread. Especially #9
Mine are still quiet
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html
Mine are still quiet
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html
Andy
12-17-2010, 06:59 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Check out my adj link thread. Especially #9
Mine are still quiet
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html
Mine are still quiet
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html
It appears they sit at approx 45 deg up and towards the back of the car.
It also appears that the angle of the heim joint is much greater at the lower fastening bolt then the top.
I think its the bottom edge of the heim joint housing that is hitting the bolt.
Were you guys adjusting the sleeves to equalize the angles of the bolt to heim joint housings top and bottom?
12-17-2010, 07:12 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Update Test Drive 3:
Same parking lot as above.
48 deg F out, dry pavement (relatively new), constant 2nd gear pushing very hard, getting up to about 58 mph, oil temps up to about 250 deg F, outside of tires have some of that "cheese grater" look to them after wards, tires warm to touch, "competition mode", 30 psi at all 4 corners.
Very good turn in, little or no body roll, active handling kicking on a fair bit as I am braking then making the sharp turns (the pavement is not very level), rear end gets a little light coming out of corners - playing with the limits of traction at the rear end with a little howling from the rear tires and a bit of rear end sliding.
I am impressed. She's tight, corners well, frankly I am amazed that this car can do what it does and still be a daily driver and get 21.5 mpg combined for me.
I think 405 HP would be way more than enough on the track for a novice like me.
But she now feels balanced between handling, braking and HP (well I think a little more braking power would be nice if you get in a little hot coming into the corners with 405 hp).
She feels like a keeper.
Room to grow for HP if you desire it, but overall well balanced and I believe one of those rare cars that you should keep regardless of the latest and greatest.
I can definitely see the attraction to HPDE's or Auto-X.
I am afraid if I go down that path, I may turn into a track junkie.
Same parking lot as above.
48 deg F out, dry pavement (relatively new), constant 2nd gear pushing very hard, getting up to about 58 mph, oil temps up to about 250 deg F, outside of tires have some of that "cheese grater" look to them after wards, tires warm to touch, "competition mode", 30 psi at all 4 corners.
Very good turn in, little or no body roll, active handling kicking on a fair bit as I am braking then making the sharp turns (the pavement is not very level), rear end gets a little light coming out of corners - playing with the limits of traction at the rear end with a little howling from the rear tires and a bit of rear end sliding.
I am impressed. She's tight, corners well, frankly I am amazed that this car can do what it does and still be a daily driver and get 21.5 mpg combined for me.
I think 405 HP would be way more than enough on the track for a novice like me.
But she now feels balanced between handling, braking and HP (well I think a little more braking power would be nice if you get in a little hot coming into the corners with 405 hp).
She feels like a keeper.
Room to grow for HP if you desire it, but overall well balanced and I believe one of those rare cars that you should keep regardless of the latest and greatest.
I can definitely see the attraction to HPDE's or Auto-X.
I am afraid if I go down that path, I may turn into a track junkie.
Last edited by andrewdonald1; 12-17-2010 at 07:27 PM.