Zip Corvettes

Andrew, tried calling measurements are below,

Lower 1.928
Upper 1.614
This was measured with dial calipers probably manufactured in China, so +/- probably .002

0Louis @ LG Motorsports

They fall in with heat, they fall out with heat. Im too lazy to use the press, so I heat them up instead.

Wait. Im not too lazy... I just know that being aluminum, they will grow a lot, and the press is only a few thou, where the heat will cause them to grow ~10 thou+.

If you have ever looked at the back of the ball joint, youll notice there isnt much place to press on. The upper especially. How do you press it out easily with out a fixture? Use some heat, and itll fall out.

Louis

andrewdonald1

Ok: so to close this issue up from my perspective.

Justin (Zip Corvette's) and I had a great discussion regarding this yesterday.
This is from the perspective of OEM replacement ball joints, my dimensions of the original OEM ball joints removed, and the dimensions of the Moog Ball joints that I was going to use for the lowers.

Unfortunately the measurements I could get from the Moog Ball Joints were just after they came out of the freezer. So I am not comfortable that we are comparing apples-to-apples between the Moog's and the OEM original ball joints that I removed.

I'll let Justin comment on the Moog K6537's (I am going from memory right now as to the Model Number as I am at work), but it was questionable if these are indeed meant for the C5. They might have been intended for the C4's.
That being said, I decided to send these back and I ordered the lower ball joints from Zip that I know are indeed intended for the application.

I also wrestled with the idea as to whether I would be ok with my rear lower control arms and rear spindles since I pressed these out cold.
Even if I drop the new ones in after I heat the above parts, I am still not 100% sure I'll have the proper interference fit.
Justin did mention how to gauge this by installing the BJ's at room temp and using a little heat from a Mapp gas hand torch to slightly heat the OD of the CA's (the ball joints should take a little but not a lot of pressure to press into place).
However this has now boiled down to risk & time for me.

The C5Z is usually my DD. If I wait for the new BJ's to arrive, and I am not comfortable with the fit at the time of installation, I am effectively down for another week or two.

With that being said I decided to purchase some used lower CA's and spindles that currently have the OEM original BJ's in place.
I will then remove the factory bushings in the CA's.
Then heat these in the oven and exchange the old with the new ball joints. In this scenario, I am back to where I should have been in the first place.

I think the lesson learned is: to be safe - heat the parts in the oven first then remove/replace the ball joints while the part is hot. Its the only sure safe way to ensure the aluminum tapers have not been jeopardized.

froggy47

If I heat them to take out the old ball joints, will the rubber melt? What temperture will the rubber catch fire? Will my wife be able to tell that I used the kitchen oven after all is said & done?

Zip Corvettes

If your wife is anything like mine she will catch you trying to put them in the oven. I would not do it this way, just use some mapp gas and warm them up a bit.

trackboss

green loctite will help secure them.

Hazman

Where VIR of course!!! My wife and I are looking for land in that area for retirement. We are both track addicts!!

Yes I am working to clean up the old plants that your grandfathers probably built. What those gentlemen did was amazing. The world largest building, housing a totally new process built and running in less than two years.

andrewdonald1

My OEM ball joints that I removed were:
Lower 1.932
Upper 1.624
Same deal on my calipers. I would think I am around the same tolerance or so.

So it looks like the Zip Ball joints are a direct fit for the original ball joints and are not over-sized. Therefore it would be best to heat the parts to remove/replace the ball joints. Confirmed?

Zip Corvettes

Yea, don't really know what they did still. I know both of them had something to do with the Nuclear bomb project in WWII. They both died young of Cancer. One of them I only got met a baby and have no memory of him. The other I miss very much.
My dad's best fried is still working there, he name is Freddy Graham if you know him say hi.
Thanks
Justin Abbott

fatbillybob

What is the CORRECT temperture to heat the control arm? Aluminum looses 25% of its strength at 400F and looses 50% at 600F and does not get it back. I don't want my balljoints tight only to have the control arm crack and fail when I'm racing on these things. Is there a heating spec?

Thanks pros for giving us your opinions!

mgarfias

bob, that graph is for aluminum's strength AT temp, not post heat.

Once it cools down, it'll be fine.

Of course, this isn't taking any heat treat into consideration, but I'm pretty sure 400deg F won't bork that. Oh, and I'm also pretty sure the CAs aren't 7075 as they're cast. Not sure what they are, but i really doubt 7075.

racerwannabe

if you heat the aluminum ,it will anneal to a degree..we do that here every day..

poser

what a GREAT discussion here guys...i appreciate the knowledge shared by everyone...

Zip Corvettes

I actually don't put a temp gauge on it and you don't have to put a massive amount of heat on it. I bet I am probably about 200-250 degrees when we do it here, I would not go past 400. Please remember your control arms have been heated before when they installed the ball joint the first time. This is not the first time this is being done to them.

Johnny how is the motor coming???? I did not hear back from you, I am assuming you do not need my engine builders number.

Pfadt Racing

Hey andrewdonald1 thanks for asking us to weigh in on this subject.

We can only speak to our own product that we sell and race on. We do not require heat in the installation procedure. There have never been any problems associated with this as our ball joints have the proper press in their design.

I agree that there may not be a clear, cut and dry universal answer and you should consult the manufacturer of the product if there are questions.

andrewdonald1

I would like to thank all of the vendors (Zip/LG/Pfadt) for weighing in the subject and ensuring our safety on the matter.

I think we have clear direction now.

If replacing ball joints with:
[1] Zip products (OEM-to-OEM fit for upper & lowers) = use heat to remove/replace to ensure proper interference fit

[2] Pfadt (lowers) = no heat required, design taken into account to ensure proper interference fit.

andrewdonald1

Gents: I just did my first ball joint heating the used spindle up with a Mapp gas torch and replacing with a frozen used ball joint.

Question for all of you guys: The spindle body as a whole gets pretty hot. Should I quench the spindle with water after I have the new ball joint in place??
Or let it cool down at room temp?

andrewdonald1

Well the saga continues with me.

The zip lower ball joints were supposed to arrive 11/22 by UPS.
Then magically changed to 11/23 after being in transit.
Then we had a snowmaggedon up here in Seattle, and on the night of 11/23 (already missed their revised delivery deadline), UPS changed the status back to in transit with no delivery date.
Seems like UPS lost the package.
Needless to say I was a little disappointed with UPS yesterday as I was going to loose the whole long weekend to work on the car.

So I made a couple command decisions yesterday.
[1] Ordered 2 additional lower ball joints from Zip via over night delivery for Friday (this will allow me to move forward with the front end conversion after I button up the rear end).

[2] Ordered 2 additional lower ball joints from Pfadt via over night delivery for Friday.
One of my new-old-used lower control arms that I purchased had some of the aluminum scrapped off (I'd say about 1/8") the outside radius where the lower ball joint mounts up. I wasn't really comfortable that I've got enough meat around the ball joint and didn't loose the structural integrity of the lower control arm.
So by switching back to the Pfadt ball joints in the back, I can now re-use my original (pristine condition) lower control arms since their ball joints are over-sized and are designed for a cold press in/out.
I am however going to heat the lower control arms.
After changing out the upper ball joints in the spindles, it is way-way easier and less stressful doing this method.
Plopping them in and out is a easy process that you don't have to worry about lining up the ball joints just right if you are pressing them back in.
I also like having the replacement ball joints prefrozen in the freezer. Once you insert the replacement ball joint in the hot aluminum, while the parts are sitting together, the ball joint doesn't get so hot while the aluminum is cooling down.

Armycop

PIKTURES DAMMIT!! I'll be doing the front LBC's this winter myself..ripped both boots, both sides when I changed out the hubs.grrr.

Jim_Harrison

I someone can find out what alloy of aluminum the CA's are made from I should be able to find out what the maximum temperature they should be heated without changing material properties. If they are made from 6061-T6 the aging temp is 350F. I would not use a torch to heat any part you plan to reuse as controlling the temp is difficult. You risk the chance of reducing the tensile and yield strength of the part.