Most say that FI is not good on the track. Why did GM use FI on ZR1?
08-05-2010, 09:31 PM
#41
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Toys are just not selling with the economy. It is a buyers market for everything. Even discounted they are still making a decent return I guess.
Few Corvette ever see the track and they would probably be opening themselves up to lawsuits with a track pack. Carbon Edtion wold have way more regular street buyers than any track runners.
Few Corvette ever see the track and they would probably be opening themselves up to lawsuits with a track pack. Carbon Edtion wold have way more regular street buyers than any track runners.
08-06-2010, 10:22 AM
#42
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Well I'll try and chime in here since I have a fair amount of tracking FI experience, and have taken a handful of hot laps in a 720rwhp ZR1. Although I do not own that car, it's kind of my job here to drive all the cars to their max effort, so I really didnt hold back much at all honestly. Although it was on stock tires, so that was the limiting factor.
FI on a std C5/C6 definately requires additional cooling and a different driving style in general. I usually tell our customers that are looking into FI and want to do HPDE's is that it is doable, but it takes a little more "awareness" by the driver to keep things happy. Being that the cars make so much more HP and TQ, you can drive the car in a higher gear, which keeps the temps down, while still making more power then a stock car would at high RPM's. This sometimes feels slower to the driver since the engine is not reving to the moon, but the car is easier to manage, and usually is faster then the lower HP car anyway.
If someone was coming to us looking to have an all out track car built, I would not steer them towards FI, but for the average to above average guy who tracks their car 2-12 times per year, it can be done and you do not lose that high HP or drivabilty for the rest of the year on the street. Chris or myself try to be the ones who instruct these guys for their first few times out so we can show them how to drive the car along with the track. We have done this with many of our customers now, including some guys who have become track regulars with 1000hp supercharged cars.
Onto the ZR1, I do agree that the ZR1 in stock form to a stock ZO6 is definately faster. With that being said though, I would take a modded NA ZO6 over the 720 rwhp ZR1 that I had on track personally. I could feel it losing power each lap at those power levels, but surprisingly, the temps stayed fairly well even though it was very hot out. I did not take enough laps to see how bad they would get, but you could feel the power loss which you would not have in the NA car anyway near as much.
I personally think the ZR1 was more of a promotional car, then a track car in GM's eyes, but they did a dam good job IMO of making it able to handle the track. The car does start pulling alot of power with temps, and that would not be optimal for consistency of a proffessional racer IMO. So I think a pro would stick to NA power, but I would love to put a stout N/A engine in a gutted ZR1 for a track ratt, but I left my spare 200k in my other jeans and washed them so.. oh well.
Disclaimer- these are just my opinions from my experiences with FI and the road course, if yours differs, excellent! Lets here them.
FI on a std C5/C6 definately requires additional cooling and a different driving style in general. I usually tell our customers that are looking into FI and want to do HPDE's is that it is doable, but it takes a little more "awareness" by the driver to keep things happy. Being that the cars make so much more HP and TQ, you can drive the car in a higher gear, which keeps the temps down, while still making more power then a stock car would at high RPM's. This sometimes feels slower to the driver since the engine is not reving to the moon, but the car is easier to manage, and usually is faster then the lower HP car anyway.
If someone was coming to us looking to have an all out track car built, I would not steer them towards FI, but for the average to above average guy who tracks their car 2-12 times per year, it can be done and you do not lose that high HP or drivabilty for the rest of the year on the street. Chris or myself try to be the ones who instruct these guys for their first few times out so we can show them how to drive the car along with the track. We have done this with many of our customers now, including some guys who have become track regulars with 1000hp supercharged cars.
Onto the ZR1, I do agree that the ZR1 in stock form to a stock ZO6 is definately faster. With that being said though, I would take a modded NA ZO6 over the 720 rwhp ZR1 that I had on track personally. I could feel it losing power each lap at those power levels, but surprisingly, the temps stayed fairly well even though it was very hot out. I did not take enough laps to see how bad they would get, but you could feel the power loss which you would not have in the NA car anyway near as much.
I personally think the ZR1 was more of a promotional car, then a track car in GM's eyes, but they did a dam good job IMO of making it able to handle the track. The car does start pulling alot of power with temps, and that would not be optimal for consistency of a proffessional racer IMO. So I think a pro would stick to NA power, but I would love to put a stout N/A engine in a gutted ZR1 for a track ratt, but I left my spare 200k in my other jeans and washed them so.. oh well.
Disclaimer- these are just my opinions from my experiences with FI and the road course, if yours differs, excellent! Lets here them.
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03-01-2011, 12:01 AM
#43
Just got back from VIR with my 2010 ZR1 and here is my inexperienced unscientific opinion which is probably incorrect....
I went last year with my my 2007 Z06 and all I can say is the ZR1 is just easier to drive. It is more predictable at the limit, and the tires, brakes, suspension, and motor can cover up a lot of mistakes and inexperience.
The Z06 was a complete beast to drive, I just never felt comfortable pushing the car to the limit.
I ran the ZR1 faster and harder than my Z06 and the ZR1 was running about 15-20 degrees cooler oil temp. Don't say it was because it was winter weather either because it was almost 80F on Sunday.
I think GM was bang on with the ZR1 package, it is perfect for date night and a weekend at the track which I truly believe is their intended audience. I think the only reason Grand Sports are rolling off the dealer lots and ZR1's are not is simple economics. If GM could sell the ZR1 for 70 grand, they couldn't build them fast enough.
I was really surprised how many people came to check the car out, I really didn't think most people would know it was being I was at a BMW event
I think we all just need to step back and enjoy each Corvette for what it is and remember that even a base corvette is faster than any BMW for example on the track!
I bet the C7 will be even better!
I went last year with my my 2007 Z06 and all I can say is the ZR1 is just easier to drive. It is more predictable at the limit, and the tires, brakes, suspension, and motor can cover up a lot of mistakes and inexperience.
The Z06 was a complete beast to drive, I just never felt comfortable pushing the car to the limit.
I ran the ZR1 faster and harder than my Z06 and the ZR1 was running about 15-20 degrees cooler oil temp. Don't say it was because it was winter weather either because it was almost 80F on Sunday.
I think GM was bang on with the ZR1 package, it is perfect for date night and a weekend at the track which I truly believe is their intended audience. I think the only reason Grand Sports are rolling off the dealer lots and ZR1's are not is simple economics. If GM could sell the ZR1 for 70 grand, they couldn't build them fast enough.
I was really surprised how many people came to check the car out, I really didn't think most people would know it was being I was at a BMW event
I think we all just need to step back and enjoy each Corvette for what it is and remember that even a base corvette is faster than any BMW for example on the track!
I bet the C7 will be even better!
03-01-2011, 01:03 PM
#44
Melting Slicks
Here is a ZR1 at the end of a 20 minute session, Down the full straight at Miller, seemed to have alot of pull still. It was a cold day I'm sure that helps. (BTW the driver of the black Porsche is John Potter of Magnus Racing they just took 4th at the Rolex 24, congratulations!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0M2Z8iUU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0M2Z8iUU0
Last edited by z06801; 03-01-2011 at 01:07 PM.
03-01-2011, 01:32 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
The ZR1 is a bad mamma-jamma. But HPDE's and similar "low" stress environments just don't bring out all the flaws in a car. However, I feel the Carbon Edition Z06 still isn't good enough, more of a bean-counter compromise.
I definitely second what PaintBallaXX said.
I definitely second what PaintBallaXX said.
03-01-2011, 11:59 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
My daily driver, a MKV GTI (stage 1) get's heat-soaked in the summer just during city driving. I could tell even when on stock boost levels.
03-02-2011, 07:05 PM
#47
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The Corvette already has a hard time cooling the engine and then you throw FI on top of it, oops. The entire cooling system and airflow design is built around NA. Adding more water AKA bigger radiator isn't enough.
FI works great the first 3 turns and then the heat soak kicks in and the computer starts pulling massive amounts of timing so it doesn't nuke the motor. You are left with an engine that makes roughly the same amount of power as it was NA. Then your handling turns into a snow plow understeering pig because you have an extra 100-200 lbs of weight in the front.
As far as the ZR1 goes I'm sure it's a nice car but I'd rather have the Z06 for road course duty. Z06 you can get up to 600rwhp. If you can't get it done with 600rwhp something else is wrong not the car.
If you want to go fast on the road course buy yourself some Hoosier A6s. Being fast on the road course is equal to your tire budget.
GM does it because they have smog laws to deal with and they can only make so much horsepower NA without being a gross polluter. FI makes it possible to have a smallish type cam and huge HP numbers. HP sells cars, NA Torque wins races.
Yes I had a supercharged LS2 on the road course.
FI works great the first 3 turns and then the heat soak kicks in and the computer starts pulling massive amounts of timing so it doesn't nuke the motor. You are left with an engine that makes roughly the same amount of power as it was NA. Then your handling turns into a snow plow understeering pig because you have an extra 100-200 lbs of weight in the front.
As far as the ZR1 goes I'm sure it's a nice car but I'd rather have the Z06 for road course duty. Z06 you can get up to 600rwhp. If you can't get it done with 600rwhp something else is wrong not the car.
If you want to go fast on the road course buy yourself some Hoosier A6s. Being fast on the road course is equal to your tire budget.
GM does it because they have smog laws to deal with and they can only make so much horsepower NA without being a gross polluter. FI makes it possible to have a smallish type cam and huge HP numbers. HP sells cars, NA Torque wins races.
Yes I had a supercharged LS2 on the road course.
03-02-2011, 09:12 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
I'm surprised noone has mentioned this yet, but the ZR1 was built to beat the competition on 1 particular road course.... which is the Nurburgring! Specifically the Nordschleife.
Due to the long sweeping turns and very high speeds reached on this track, it is a lot different than what most HPDE tracks around the country offer.
Most people are finding that on courses like Willowsprings or Streets of Willow, the Z06 Carbon is pretty much dead even with the ZR1.
On the Nurburgring, the ZR1 came in at 7.26.4
The C6 Z06 came in at 7:42.99.
What a difference!
Due to the long sweeping turns and very high speeds reached on this track, it is a lot different than what most HPDE tracks around the country offer.
Most people are finding that on courses like Willowsprings or Streets of Willow, the Z06 Carbon is pretty much dead even with the ZR1.
On the Nurburgring, the ZR1 came in at 7.26.4
The C6 Z06 came in at 7:42.99.
What a difference!