Dirty bergmeister
10-13-2009, 12:59 AM
#101
Yup. I don't have any idea why they do it that way.
Yup, I was just correcting your clarification of my clarification.
http://vimeo.com/7037739 is a video of how SCCA races start at Laguna. I just now uploaded it.
Yup, I was just correcting your clarification of my clarification.
http://vimeo.com/7037739 is a video of how SCCA races start at Laguna. I just now uploaded it.
10-13-2009, 01:17 AM
#102
Melting Slicks
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I did not see anybody entering the track at start finish.
I was just showing how the grid is setup for SCCA; that the pit exit isn't used at all.
Skip Barber races also use the front straight to exit the pits.
Anyway we've gone way off topic by now. My original point was that on some tracks you are allowed to cross the blend line if you are already on the racing surface. The Laguna rules (per most sanctioning bodies), which forbid it, are not universal to every track.
10-13-2009, 01:34 AM
#103
Melting Slicks
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Jörg Bergmeister and Jan Magnussen placed on two-race probation for 2010
http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...FS=ALMS-LEMANS
Pictures from the Monterey Sports Car Championships presented by Patrón
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2009...-championships
http://www.flickr.com/groups/alms/
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/sel.../Saturday_race
http://www.lizardms.com/
Wasn't that Corvette C6.R on cold tires? Pierre Kaffer did not appear upset after the Mosport race. I've watched that race twice on SPEED and he was actually smiling and saying that it was "proper racing" as the two professional drivers were just that, professional drivers. They haven't done much of anything else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbMeEgpV96g
http://www.pierre-kaffer.de/
Was that on purpose?
Dirty driving was what Patrick Long did at St. Pete in 2008 when he hit the Primetime Dodge Viper which spun and then had the Bell Motorsports Aston Martin DBR9 crash. But that wasn't even close to what happened in grand am racing in mexico city in late 2005 on the final lap..
This is racing because it was not staged with some lucky dog rule like in NASCAR. The 2007 Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring had just two caution flags and the last one happened over three hours from the finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I
http://www.sebringraceway.com/
Tomas Enge had poor driving at Lime Rock Park and he lost his GT2 ride after the 2007 Mid-Ohio race.
http://www.petersenmotorsports.com/s...tem.asp?ID=366
http://www.astonmartinracing.com/eng...driverprofiles
They might have been checking on Jan. The ALMS isn't like NASCAR with backflips on pitlane, smashing guitars, and fist fights.
As for the bailout money, surely a lot more $$$$ is wasted on NASCAR versus the GT2 program which is at least using production-based machinery.
http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...FS=ALMS-LEMANS
Pictures from the Monterey Sports Car Championships presented by Patrón
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2009...-championships
http://www.flickr.com/groups/alms/
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/sel.../Saturday_race
http://www.lizardms.com/
L
Both drivers wanted the win. Jan had no problem banging lap after lap. The Vette won Mosport by banging into the Ferrari knocking him into the marbles. In that case the Ferrari was not willing to "win at all cost" and he settled for second.
you can not race that way and expect to never pay the price.
LG
Both drivers wanted the win. Jan had no problem banging lap after lap. The Vette won Mosport by banging into the Ferrari knocking him into the marbles. In that case the Ferrari was not willing to "win at all cost" and he settled for second.
you can not race that way and expect to never pay the price.
LG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbMeEgpV96g
http://www.pierre-kaffer.de/
Dirty driving was what Patrick Long did at St. Pete in 2008 when he hit the Primetime Dodge Viper which spun and then had the Bell Motorsports Aston Martin DBR9 crash. But that wasn't even close to what happened in grand am racing in mexico city in late 2005 on the final lap..
Apparently the ALMS is going to allow a little more contact. I like that! I have all but given up on NASCAR and F1 because the pretty boys must act like angles. Hell, it is racing. You know things can and will happen when you race. I felt terrable for Lou after Long Beach last year. , but, that is racing!
Jim
Jim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I
http://www.sebringraceway.com/
Tomas Enge had poor driving at Lime Rock Park and he lost his GT2 ride after the 2007 Mid-Ohio race.
http://www.petersenmotorsports.com/s...tem.asp?ID=366
http://www.astonmartinracing.com/eng...driverprofiles
As for the bailout money, surely a lot more $$$$ is wasted on NASCAR versus the GT2 program which is at least using production-based machinery.
10-13-2009, 02:12 AM
#104
Le Mans Master
http://www.youtube.com/user/nkoske#p/a
Here is a video that has been slowed down by 50%. (first full speed, then by a quarter then by half)
Check out the slowest video speed and watch the Corvette head light on the left against the wall.
I think this confirms that the Corvette hit the wall first then got whipped to the right without being spun by the Porsche.
you can also see a small gap between the porsche and Vette and the porsche stays going straight but the Corvette whips to the right after wall contact.
It is hard to see but there is no other way that the Corvette could turn right so violently without hitting the wall.
LG
Here is a video that has been slowed down by 50%. (first full speed, then by a quarter then by half)
Check out the slowest video speed and watch the Corvette head light on the left against the wall.
I think this confirms that the Corvette hit the wall first then got whipped to the right without being spun by the Porsche.
you can also see a small gap between the porsche and Vette and the porsche stays going straight but the Corvette whips to the right after wall contact.
It is hard to see but there is no other way that the Corvette could turn right so violently without hitting the wall.
LG
Last edited by jimman; 10-13-2009 at 02:16 AM.
10-13-2009, 03:04 AM
#105
Melting Slicks
Well Since we're posting pictures, I'll add these two.
What I see is that Jan was going to loose unless he did something dirty, he tries a pit maneuver on Bermeister by hitting his left rear. Bergmeister oversteers through the corner and recovers on the far outside of the track almost running off, he cuts left and Jan tries to pass in the dirt. Jan looses control and Bergmeister saves Jan's life by hitting the brakes.
And this is Jan steering out of the dirt to miss the pit wall, loosing control, Bergmeister hits the brakes to avoid hitting Jan and probably saves his life by doing so.
What I see is that Jan was going to loose unless he did something dirty, he tries a pit maneuver on Bermeister by hitting his left rear. Bergmeister oversteers through the corner and recovers on the far outside of the track almost running off, he cuts left and Jan tries to pass in the dirt. Jan looses control and Bergmeister saves Jan's life by hitting the brakes.
And this is Jan steering out of the dirt to miss the pit wall, loosing control, Bergmeister hits the brakes to avoid hitting Jan and probably saves his life by doing so.
10-13-2009, 03:18 AM
#106
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this is a no win thread.
Adam, great pictures to explain this.
The 45 turned left to make up for the hit in the left rear that was an attempt to spin the Porsche.
Just because the Kevlar allows the body work to spring back does not mean that there was no hit. It was clear on the full speed video. The contact happened to the 45's flat rear under tray mostly.
If Jan did not hit the 45 in turn 11, there would have not been a close race up the pit wall.
Both cars were worn out after their stint. And there was defensive driving but if I were in the leading car and I got hit by the car behind, trying to mess up my exit, I would have also taken the blocking line as long as you only move one time.
the pattern was established early. #4 crashed into the field in turn 2. # 4 hit the Mazda in turn 9.
the good thing is that I was not involved. The bad thing is that it could happen any time to any person.
LG
Adam, great pictures to explain this.
The 45 turned left to make up for the hit in the left rear that was an attempt to spin the Porsche.
Just because the Kevlar allows the body work to spring back does not mean that there was no hit. It was clear on the full speed video. The contact happened to the 45's flat rear under tray mostly.
If Jan did not hit the 45 in turn 11, there would have not been a close race up the pit wall.
Both cars were worn out after their stint. And there was defensive driving but if I were in the leading car and I got hit by the car behind, trying to mess up my exit, I would have also taken the blocking line as long as you only move one time.
the pattern was established early. #4 crashed into the field in turn 2. # 4 hit the Mazda in turn 9.
the good thing is that I was not involved. The bad thing is that it could happen any time to any person.
LG
Last edited by LG Motorsports; 10-13-2009 at 03:20 AM.
10-13-2009, 07:47 AM
#107
Le Mans Master
Well Since we're posting pictures, I'll add these two.
What I see is that Jan was going to loose unless he did something dirty, he tries a pit maneuver on Bermeister by hitting his left rear. Bergmeister oversteers through the corner and recovers on the far outside of the track almost running off, he cuts left and Jan tries to pass in the dirt. Jan looses control and Bergmeister saves Jan's life by hitting the brakes.
And this is Jan steering out of the dirt to miss the pit wall, loosing control, Bergmeister hits the brakes to avoid hitting Jan and probably saves his life by doing so.
What I see is that Jan was going to loose unless he did something dirty, he tries a pit maneuver on Bermeister by hitting his left rear. Bergmeister oversteers through the corner and recovers on the far outside of the track almost running off, he cuts left and Jan tries to pass in the dirt. Jan looses control and Bergmeister saves Jan's life by hitting the brakes.
And this is Jan steering out of the dirt to miss the pit wall, loosing control, Bergmeister hits the brakes to avoid hitting Jan and probably saves his life by doing so.
Right on the result of avoiding hit and your statement of saving his life is without question the most inept statement I've ever heard.
10-13-2009, 07:53 AM
#108
Le Mans Master
this is a no win thread.
Adam, great pictures to explain this.
The 45 turned left to make up for the hit in the left rear that was an attempt to spin the Porsche.
Just because the Kevlar allows the body work to spring back does not mean that there was no hit. It was clear on the full speed video. The contact happened to the 45's flat rear under tray mostly.
If Jan did not hit the 45 in turn 11, there would have not been a close race up the pit wall.
Both cars were worn out after their stint. And there was defensive driving but if I were in the leading car and I got hit by the car behind, trying to mess up my exit, I would have also taken the blocking line as long as you only move one time.
the pattern was established early. #4 crashed into the field in turn 2. # 4 hit the Mazda in turn 9.
the good thing is that I was not involved. The bad thing is that it could happen any time to any person.
LG
Adam, great pictures to explain this.
The 45 turned left to make up for the hit in the left rear that was an attempt to spin the Porsche.
Just because the Kevlar allows the body work to spring back does not mean that there was no hit. It was clear on the full speed video. The contact happened to the 45's flat rear under tray mostly.
If Jan did not hit the 45 in turn 11, there would have not been a close race up the pit wall.
Both cars were worn out after their stint. And there was defensive driving but if I were in the leading car and I got hit by the car behind, trying to mess up my exit, I would have also taken the blocking line as long as you only move one time.
the pattern was established early. #4 crashed into the field in turn 2. # 4 hit the Mazda in turn 9.
the good thing is that I was not involved. The bad thing is that it could happen any time to any person.
LG
10-13-2009, 09:06 AM
#109
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He didn't just make one blocking move. The tape shows at least 2 moves prior to the contact. Further there is no justification for retaliation.
10-13-2009, 10:03 AM
#110
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Maybe you all are watching a different video?
Yes, the porsche moved left to block the Vette that just hit him in the rear. But it takes TWO to tango.
You seem to want to forgive the Vette for his actions yet condemn the Porsche.
Neither one did a good thing but the way I saw it the Corvette was the one who hit the Porsche first in turn 2 while on the outside. The porsche did take the wide line but that is normal and legal but the Vette turned left and hit him.
Then the #3 car hit the Porsche in turn 11 trying to eliminate him from the race to the finish. (cant spin a rear engine car in a slow corner by hitting them in the rear)
Then the blocking move by the Porsche moved the Corvette to the left, the Corvette did not lift and neither did the Porsche and the wall curved to the right and the Vette we turned instantly to the right AFTER contact with the wall.
No the Porsche did not give any more room for the vette to have a free run. Neither did the Corvette lift to avoid the situation.
That analysis is not having a hard on it is describing what I saw using 38 years of driving a race car in competition against most of the same guys.
I know many of the tactics that each driver uses from racing with and against them.
Situations like this is why they have rules of the road in Racing. IMSA did everything short of Suspending the drivers. Politics did not let them DQ both drivers, which is what they should have done.
Last year at Sebring, had they taken the win away from the Ferrari that hit Jorg, the message would have been sent and this might not have happened.
Either way, the slow mo video made it clear to me what really happened. They both raced pretty poorly and dirty. Key word is BOTH.
LG
Yes, the porsche moved left to block the Vette that just hit him in the rear. But it takes TWO to tango.
You seem to want to forgive the Vette for his actions yet condemn the Porsche.
Neither one did a good thing but the way I saw it the Corvette was the one who hit the Porsche first in turn 2 while on the outside. The porsche did take the wide line but that is normal and legal but the Vette turned left and hit him.
Then the #3 car hit the Porsche in turn 11 trying to eliminate him from the race to the finish. (cant spin a rear engine car in a slow corner by hitting them in the rear)
Then the blocking move by the Porsche moved the Corvette to the left, the Corvette did not lift and neither did the Porsche and the wall curved to the right and the Vette we turned instantly to the right AFTER contact with the wall.
No the Porsche did not give any more room for the vette to have a free run. Neither did the Corvette lift to avoid the situation.
That analysis is not having a hard on it is describing what I saw using 38 years of driving a race car in competition against most of the same guys.
I know many of the tactics that each driver uses from racing with and against them.
Situations like this is why they have rules of the road in Racing. IMSA did everything short of Suspending the drivers. Politics did not let them DQ both drivers, which is what they should have done.
Last year at Sebring, had they taken the win away from the Ferrari that hit Jorg, the message would have been sent and this might not have happened.
Either way, the slow mo video made it clear to me what really happened. They both raced pretty poorly and dirty. Key word is BOTH.
LG
10-13-2009, 10:17 AM
#111
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We use Bosch for engine data and Motec for all chassis data in ALMS.
We did use STACK for World Challenge which was much less expensive.
I am not up on all the track data systems for the weekend warriors.
Either way the info that you will get can take the guess work out of what your driving is doing.
Thanks
Lou G
We did use STACK for World Challenge which was much less expensive.
I am not up on all the track data systems for the weekend warriors.
Either way the info that you will get can take the guess work out of what your driving is doing.
Thanks
Lou G
10-13-2009, 10:19 AM
#112
Race Director
They did both race poorly and dirty in that short amount of time. I'm not in anyway saying that he was an innocent bystander through all of this. The difference between the two was that one of them took it to the point of wrecking the other one. Both of them are good enough drivers with enough car control to hit somebody or block somebody without taking them out. Whether Magnussen's bump in the rear was intentional or not, he never intended to send Bergmeister into the wall whereas Bergmeister knew exactly what was going to happen when he drove down against the inside wall like he did.
BTW, I would be saying the exact same thing if it had happened the other way. I'm not out there, so my opinion is from that of a spectator vice a driver or team owner, but I see no problem with a last turn "nudge." I do see a problem with an intentional crash no matter WHO it is.
10-13-2009, 10:31 AM
#113
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You got a hard on for the factory team, take it up with them and stop the bs on this thread. Must be awesome never to have ever wrecked in a race or caused something to happen. You were slower than most of the field and was laped three times, get over it and move on to the next event. Also so you out qualed them once, get over that too.
Wow, Jim,
Yes we out qualified them "Once" but we only raced against them Twice.
Once the ideas are bankrupt the personal attacks start.
We were only slow when the tires gave up. And at their best we were .9 sec off. our tires were developed 3 years ago and that is all that we can get.
Our fast time was only 9 tenths of a second off the fastest but our tires go away much sooner.
we were on the lead lap for just about 2 hours until my driver spun on tires that were down to the cords.
Then a green flag pit stop lost a second lap. (that happens at Laguna when you have a 40 second in-out PLUS the pit stop.
Then my second driver had an issue in the car and could not continue. All in all, not as bad as the #4 car that crashed on a restart and then ran into the Mazda prototype and went off track.
Lots of things can happen in a 4 hours race.
So what should we get over?
What would we do to Please YOU?
Or better yet, why do you think I actually have to please you?
I won 23 world Challenge races, 2 trans Am races, 1 Grand Am race, 2 IMSA races, Plus other class wins ; so I know I didn't crash in any of those races
I will work harder to please you in the future
LG
10-13-2009, 10:33 AM
#114
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You got a hard on for the factory team, take it up with them and stop the bs on this thread. Must be awesome never to have ever wrecked in a race or caused something to happen. You were slower than most of the field and was laped three times, get over it and move on to the next event. Also so you out qualed them once, get over that too.
and which car were you driving or team that you own ?
how did YOU qualify ?
10-13-2009, 11:01 AM
#115
Melting Slicks
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Keep in mind I'm ONLY talking about the last turn/straight with this comment and not anything prior in the race...
They did both race poorly and dirty in that short amount of time. I'm not in anyway saying that he was an innocent bystander through all of this. The difference between the two was that one of them took it to the point of wrecking the other one. Both of them are good enough drivers with enough car control to hit somebody or block somebody without taking them out. Whether Magnussen's bump in the rear was intentional or not, he never intended to send Bergmeister into the wall whereas Bergmeister knew exactly what was going to happen when he drove down against the inside wall like he did.
BTW, I would be saying the exact same thing if it had happened the other way. I'm not out there, so my opinion is from that of a spectator vice a driver or team owner, but I see no problem with a last turn "nudge." I do see a problem with an intentional crash no matter WHO it is.
They did both race poorly and dirty in that short amount of time. I'm not in anyway saying that he was an innocent bystander through all of this. The difference between the two was that one of them took it to the point of wrecking the other one. Both of them are good enough drivers with enough car control to hit somebody or block somebody without taking them out. Whether Magnussen's bump in the rear was intentional or not, he never intended to send Bergmeister into the wall whereas Bergmeister knew exactly what was going to happen when he drove down against the inside wall like he did.
BTW, I would be saying the exact same thing if it had happened the other way. I'm not out there, so my opinion is from that of a spectator vice a driver or team owner, but I see no problem with a last turn "nudge." I do see a problem with an intentional crash no matter WHO it is.
There is a differance between trying to spin someone into a gravel trap and intentionally driving someone into a wall! Yeah Jan could have lifted and Jorg could have given a little room to race. Sure push him toward the wall trying to kill a little of his momentum but don't drive him into a wall.
And yes I would say this no matter what team pulled a move like this.
No driver should be put in the position to have to choose between "lift or crash" especially when all you would have had to do is move 1/2 car over.
I think the fact that Jan wasn't more vocal about the contact shows that he's not proud of his actions either.
All I can say is to watch out in 2010 because it could be one hell of a year for GT2, hopefully full of good hard racing with minimal contact.
10-13-2009, 11:06 AM
#116
Melting Slicks
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You got a hard on for the factory team, take it up with them and stop the bs on this thread. Must be awesome never to have ever wrecked in a race or caused something to happen. You were slower than most of the field and was laped three times, get over it and move on to the next event. Also so you out qualed them once, get over that too.
Something tells me you won't have so much to say then!
Thank you LG for your insite on this thread please don't take a few opinions over the majority that have been rooting for you and value your contribution to the forum and the Corvette racing community in general.
10-13-2009, 11:09 AM
#118
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Is there any type of rule in IMSA that a driver needs to give room at a certain point? or is it with in the rules to drive someone into a wall?
10-13-2009, 11:11 AM
#119
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10-13-2009, 11:13 AM
#120
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You got a hard on for the factory team, take it up with them and stop the bs on this thread. Must be awesome never to have ever wrecked in a race or caused something to happen. You were slower than most of the field and was laped three times, get over it and move on to the next event. Also so you out qualed them once, get over that too.