Dirty bergmeister
10-14-2009, 12:58 AM
#181
Le Mans Master
I sat in the suites right above turn 11 and watched the races there all day Sat and Sun. Every lap it seemed someone got bumped in that turn. Guess what, no one got shoved in the wall, or got a weed up their back side over it!!! So why did the turtle driver have to take a chance on killing someone over it. Hope he chokes on the trophy, cause it is full of bs as a result.
Saw the same thing all day, blocking on one side of the fence and bump and run the other, so who's at fault? What I'm having a hard time to understand is the bump in turn 11 was thought to be bad but running the compitition into the wall seems to be ok????? Now that probably stems from the brand recognition differences and the dislike of the factory Corvette team. I had a bit of a problem on this thread with one of the teams when they brought out the sticks and said the Corvette team was dirty. I took that somewhat personal because I and several others spent the day with them and seen what they did with the young sailor who just got back from Iraq the day before that we brought up to see the races. Also did not see all this so called “on purpose” dirty driving. Since they lead the first half of the race with no one in front and ran down the leaders several times after various pit stop events. We were right on top of turn 11 with three TV’s showing the rest of the track and didn’t see any on purpose so called dirty driving.
10-14-2009, 01:51 AM
#182
Melting Slicks
At time 0:33 the Vette bumps the Porsche. Whether that was acceptable or not I'm not sure. At time 0:35 the Porsche is now clearly free of the Vette and still on track. At time 0:36 the Porsche is lined up to take the proper line. Right behind the #4 Vette. The #3 Vette is behind the Porsche.
This is where my question comes in. If you are driving the Porsche. You know you clearly have a better car. Wouldn't you just flat foot it after the #4 Vette who is on the racing line? Just run the #3 Vette down to the end of the straight? Now if you know the #3 Vette is a faster car. You don't dare get into a foot race with it. You need to block? But you can't really block on a straight, per say? So what do you do to save your win?
What I saw was. At time 0:37 - 0:39 a very decisive move left to push the other car towards the wall so that the driver lifts and looses to save driving into the wall. That gives you enough room now to sprint to the finish and not get outrun in the foot race.
My opinion is that under the pressure of the moment, to win, and push the Vette back, you make a decision to do a ****ty but very effective move. Push the Vette at the wall. I'm not sure that the Porsche driver really thought that the Vette driver would actually have the sack to run him all the way down the wall. Both guys were running rough shot over each other and neither is the good guy here. One just went a little too far. I don't care whether it was a Vette or a Porsche. Trust me I am no Porsche fan. But that stunt was pretty damned scary and at the very least those 2 should get benched for a while. IMSA does have to make it crystal clear that they will park a whole team for on track antics like that. Penalizing a team after the driver gets killed isn't acceptable.
Graham
http://www.youtube.com/user/nkoske#p/a
Here is a video that has been slowed down by 50%. (first full speed, then by a quarter then by half)
Check out the slowest video speed and watch the Corvette head light on the left against the wall.
I think this confirms that the Corvette hit the wall first then got whipped to the right without being spun by the Porsche.
you can also see a small gap between the porsche and Vette and the porsche stays going straight but the Corvette whips to the right after wall contact.
It is hard to see but there is no other way that the Corvette could turn right so violently without hitting the wall.
LG
Here is a video that has been slowed down by 50%. (first full speed, then by a quarter then by half)
Check out the slowest video speed and watch the Corvette head light on the left against the wall.
I think this confirms that the Corvette hit the wall first then got whipped to the right without being spun by the Porsche.
you can also see a small gap between the porsche and Vette and the porsche stays going straight but the Corvette whips to the right after wall contact.
It is hard to see but there is no other way that the Corvette could turn right so violently without hitting the wall.
LG
10-14-2009, 03:26 AM
#183
Melting Slicks
It is up to the passing car to execute a clean pass. Bergmeister is on his line on a straight away at this point and is perfectly legal to continue straight. Jan comes over to avoid the the wall and crashes himself out as we see from the wheel mark on the side of the Porsche.
Again, Jan tried to cheat by doing a pit maneuver on Bermegmeister in T11. If you forgive that sort of behavior for the Corvette, you have to forgive the Porsche defending it's line, unless you're a hypocrite.
People far more qualified than you and me have already ruled both drivers are equally guilty in this and should be punished the same.
Despite what people are saying in this thread, Jan was blatantly cheating at T11 which is why the officials are putting him on probation.
10-14-2009, 03:36 AM
#184
Melting Slicks
At time 0:35 the Porsche is now clearly free of the Vette and still on track. At time 0:36 the Porsche is lined up to take the proper line. Right behind the #4 Vette. The #3 Vette is behind the Porsche.
This is where my question comes in. If you are driving the Porsche. You know you clearly have a better car. Wouldn't you just flat foot it after the #4 Vette who is on the racing line?
This is where my question comes in. If you are driving the Porsche. You know you clearly have a better car. Wouldn't you just flat foot it after the #4 Vette who is on the racing line?
My opinion is that under the pressure of the moment, to win, and push the Vette back, you make a decision to do a ****ty but very effective move. Push the Vette at the wall. I'm not sure that the Porsche driver really thought that the Vette driver would actually have the sack to run him all the way down the wall. Both guys were running rough shot over each other and neither is the good guy here. One just went a little too far. I don't care whether it was a Vette or a Porsche. Trust me I am no Porsche fan. But that stunt was pretty damned scary and at the very least those 2 should get benched for a while. IMSA does have to make it crystal clear that they will park a whole team for on track antics like that. Penalizing a team after the driver gets killed isn't acceptable.
Graham
Graham
(second video)
http://autostream.com/2009/10/ghost-...s-for-the-win/
The officials didn't support the high road then, so I am sure any of us might have acted the same way as Jeorg did had Sebring `07 happened to us.
The Corvette was going to loose and Jan had to cheat to win so he bumped out Joerg's tail at T11 lowering the bar. It was Sebring `07 all over again and Joerg knew how that ended and wouldn't let it happen again.
I'm just glad the IMSA officials ruled the right way this time around so hopefully this NASCAR crap will come to an end.
10-14-2009, 03:51 AM
#185
Le Mans Master
It is not, this was Jan intentionally trying to throw the Porsche off it's line and slow it down. Had Jan not done this, the Porsche would have had a far faster line and the wall episode would never have happened.
Because Jan destabilized the Porsche, the Porsche got ont he gas far later giving him a much slower EXIT SPEED than he would had he had a clean corner. According to Lou, the rules give one defensive blocking move, and Joerg chose to take it by closing off the Vette's lane. The Vette isn't past the Porsche until he is off track driving down the wall.
Joerg did the "right thing" at Sebring 2007 after the Risi Ferrari cheated the same way as the Corvette.
(second video)
http://autostream.com/2009/10/ghost-...s-for-the-win/
The officials didn't support the high road then, so I am sure any of us might have acted the same way as Jeorg did had Sebring `07 happened to us.
The Corvette was going to loose and Jan had to cheat to win so he bumped out Joerg's tail at T11 lowering the bar. It was Sebring `07 all over again and Joerg knew how that ended and wouldn't let it happen again.
I'm just glad the IMSA officials ruled the right way this time around so hopefully this NASCAR crap will come to an end.
Because Jan destabilized the Porsche, the Porsche got ont he gas far later giving him a much slower EXIT SPEED than he would had he had a clean corner. According to Lou, the rules give one defensive blocking move, and Joerg chose to take it by closing off the Vette's lane. The Vette isn't past the Porsche until he is off track driving down the wall.
Joerg did the "right thing" at Sebring 2007 after the Risi Ferrari cheated the same way as the Corvette.
(second video)
http://autostream.com/2009/10/ghost-...s-for-the-win/
The officials didn't support the high road then, so I am sure any of us might have acted the same way as Jeorg did had Sebring `07 happened to us.
The Corvette was going to loose and Jan had to cheat to win so he bumped out Joerg's tail at T11 lowering the bar. It was Sebring `07 all over again and Joerg knew how that ended and wouldn't let it happen again.
I'm just glad the IMSA officials ruled the right way this time around so hopefully this NASCAR crap will come to an end.
10-14-2009, 04:19 AM
#186
Intermediate
Member Since: Aug 2009
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the porsche moved left to block the Vette that just hit him in the rear. But it takes TWO to tango.
You seem to want to forgive the Vette for his actions yet condemn the Porsche.
Neither one did a good thing but the way I saw it the Corvette was the one who hit the Porsche first in turn 2 while on the outside. The porsche did take the wide line but that is normal and legal but the Vette turned left and hit him.
Then the #3 car hit the Porsche in turn 11 trying to eliminate him from the race to the finish. (cant spin a rear engine car in a slow corner by hitting them in the rear)
Then the blocking move by the Porsche moved the Corvette to the left, the Corvette did not lift and neither did the Porsche and the wall curved to the right and the Vette we turned instantly to the right AFTER contact with the wall.
No the Porsche did not give any more room for the vette to have a free run. Neither did the Corvette lift to avoid the situation.
That analysis is not having a hard on it is describing what I saw using 38 years of driving a race car in competition against most of the same guys.
I know many of the tactics that each driver uses from racing with and against them.
Situations like this is why they have rules of the road in Racing. IMSA did everything short of Suspending the drivers. Politics did not let them DQ both drivers, which is what they should have done.
Last year at Sebring, had they taken the win away from the Ferrari that hit Jorg, the message would have been sent and this might not have happened.
Either way, the slow mo video made it clear to me what really happened. They both raced pretty poorly and dirty. Key word is BOTH.
LG
The problem I see here overiding everything is that you guys are barracking for a brand--and prepared to rationalise ,justify any type of lack of sportsmanship .True believers (wether religious,political, whatever)are responsible for a lot of the worlds problems. Do not let your Corvette eye patches make you blind to what was actually taking place here.
Lou makes the point that neither of them are clean here.It is the relevent authorities lack of action ( historically) here that ought to be condemmed.Professional races have a clear charter of what is expected of them--and they will push every boundary untill past a reasonable limit .What is needed is stong policing of standards.
What that would have meant in this case-- a professional tap in the last corner to (that results in the car tapped losing momentum) unsettle the lead car-- needs to be punished and not rewarded with the race win .
If that was going to be the result-- the first tap would have not occurred and all of what followed would not have happened. All round a very dissappointing finish to a race.
I do spend some time at the wheel of a race car and if I had been in either of those teams I would have been dissappointed with both what took place and the outcome.
10-14-2009, 07:50 AM
#188
Race Director
What is with everybody using the words "pit maneuver?" Is it the cool phrase of the day? It makes me feel like I am watching America's Dumbest Police Chases. As you are all well aware, that is when you intentionally spin somebody out. The rest of the argument aside, if you think JM was trying to spin him out you are just plain wrong. First, he hit him square in the rear. Second, I'm guessing when it comes down to it, if a driver of that caliber wants to actually intentionally wreck you... he will.
He bumped him... why? Maybe JB slowed down intentionally to break his momentum (what it looks like to me). Maybe JM was trying a bump and run type of deal. Whatever it was, it certainly was NOT trying to spin him out.
He bumped him... why? Maybe JB slowed down intentionally to break his momentum (what it looks like to me). Maybe JM was trying a bump and run type of deal. Whatever it was, it certainly was NOT trying to spin him out.
10-14-2009, 08:33 AM
#189
Anyone remember the Grand Am Rolex race at Homestead, in 2004? Jan Magnussen and Max Papis were both fined after their driving near the end of that race. Banging doors and fenders to win a race isn't something Jan is unfamiliar with. I wish I could find a working Youtube clip of that race, I can't remember how the bumping started.
10-14-2009, 11:32 AM
#190
Safety Car
Exactly. JM bumped the Porsche and upset his corner exit, but there was nothing likely to cause harm.
10-14-2009, 12:26 PM
#192
Melting Slicks
What is with everybody using the words "pit maneuver?" Is it the cool phrase of the day? It makes me feel like I am watching America's Dumbest Police Chases. As you are all well aware, that is when you intentionally spin somebody out. The rest of the argument aside, if you think JM was trying to spin him out you are just plain wrong. First, he hit him square in the rear. Second, I'm guessing when it comes down to it, if a driver of that caliber wants to actually intentionally wreck you... he will.
He bumped him... why? Maybe JB slowed down intentionally to break his momentum (what it looks like to me). Maybe JM was trying a bump and run type of deal. Whatever it was, it certainly was NOT trying to spin him out.
He bumped him... why? Maybe JB slowed down intentionally to break his momentum (what it looks like to me). Maybe JM was trying a bump and run type of deal. Whatever it was, it certainly was NOT trying to spin him out.
I am very pleased they ruled this as cheating, because this NASCAR crap has no place in Le Mans Racing.
PS I am happy they ruled against Joerg too, both drivers drove in a way unbecoming the sport.
Last edited by Adam Bruce; 10-14-2009 at 12:33 PM.
10-14-2009, 12:46 PM
#193
Melting Slicks
Anyone remember the Grand Am Rolex race at Homestead, in 2004? Jan Magnussen and Max Papis were both fined after their driving near the end of that race. Banging doors and fenders to win a race isn't something Jan is unfamiliar with. I wish I could find a working Youtube clip of that race, I can't remember how the bumping started.
I think Papis started it, but can't recall the details
10-14-2009, 01:07 PM
#194
Le Mans Master
http://www.johnnyoconnell.com/
Laguna Seca 2009
Added 10/14/09
Normally I really enjoy talking about what went on over a race weekend and sharing the inside scoop of what happened and how we did. Right now, I’m just still too upset about that finish and all that transpired. Needless to say the best car that should have won the race is destroyed, and the one driver that proved he was faster and better is very banged up and having to spend time healing. While the one with no integrity, honor or sportsmanship is fine.
Congratulations to Patrick Long who does deserve to be a champion. He’s a class act and fair driver at all times. One of the United States brightest young drivers. The same can be said about Seth Neiman and everyone on his team Flying Lizard. Great guys and a good team. Congratulations.
After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto was quoted as saying, “ I fear that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant. “ You can fill in the rest as it relates to how next season will go.
As always, thanks to everyone that supports Corvette Racing and the American Le Mans Series.
Johnny
Added 10/14/09
Normally I really enjoy talking about what went on over a race weekend and sharing the inside scoop of what happened and how we did. Right now, I’m just still too upset about that finish and all that transpired. Needless to say the best car that should have won the race is destroyed, and the one driver that proved he was faster and better is very banged up and having to spend time healing. While the one with no integrity, honor or sportsmanship is fine.
Congratulations to Patrick Long who does deserve to be a champion. He’s a class act and fair driver at all times. One of the United States brightest young drivers. The same can be said about Seth Neiman and everyone on his team Flying Lizard. Great guys and a good team. Congratulations.
After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto was quoted as saying, “ I fear that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant. “ You can fill in the rest as it relates to how next season will go.
As always, thanks to everyone that supports Corvette Racing and the American Le Mans Series.
Johnny
10-14-2009, 01:08 PM
#195
Instructor
i dont know what you can do for jim lg , but i have some suggestions. drive the wheels off that damn vette! seriously! i will root for a "blue collar" racer than a factory one anyday. you wake up ,go to work,wrench on the car all week to make it to a race. thats rewarding. thats america. so stick that flamed badass hot rod up everyones tailpipes, get to the front and stay there! in lesser words... WIN.
10-14-2009, 01:18 PM
#196
Race Director
"The PIT begins when the pursuing vehicle pulls alongside the fleeing vehicle so that the portion of the pursuer's vehicle forward of the front wheels is aligned with the portion of the target vehicle behind the back wheels. The pursuer gently makes contact with the target's side, then steers sharply into the target. As soon as the fleeing vehicle's rear tires lose traction and start to skid, the pursuer brakes quickly while continuing to turn in the same direction until clear of the target. The target will turn in the opposite direction, in front of the pursuer, and will either spin out or abruptly exit the roadway."
Last edited by RedLS1GTO; 10-14-2009 at 01:21 PM.
10-14-2009, 01:30 PM
#197
Negative ghost rider.
It is up to the passing car to execute a clean pass. Bergmeister is on his line on a straight away at this point and is perfectly legal to continue straight. Jan comes over to avoid the the wall and crashes himself out as we see from the wheel mark on the side of the Porsche.
Again, Jan tried to cheat by doing a pit maneuver on Bermegmeister in T11. If you forgive that sort of behavior for the Corvette, you have to forgive the Porsche defending it's line, unless you're a hypocrite.
People far more qualified than you and me have already ruled both drivers are equally guilty in this and should be punished the same.
Despite what people are saying in this thread, Jan was blatantly cheating at T11 which is why the officials are putting him on probation.
It is up to the passing car to execute a clean pass. Bergmeister is on his line on a straight away at this point and is perfectly legal to continue straight. Jan comes over to avoid the the wall and crashes himself out as we see from the wheel mark on the side of the Porsche.
Again, Jan tried to cheat by doing a pit maneuver on Bermegmeister in T11. If you forgive that sort of behavior for the Corvette, you have to forgive the Porsche defending it's line, unless you're a hypocrite.
People far more qualified than you and me have already ruled both drivers are equally guilty in this and should be punished the same.
Despite what people are saying in this thread, Jan was blatantly cheating at T11 which is why the officials are putting him on probation.
As a racer, I am WELL aware of the debate of "my fender was even with that car's door....yadda yadda yadda" and all the written rule BS that Spec Miata and other banger drivers use to justify their contact. Even an analysis of most written rules would show that once an overtaker's front fender is alongside a overtakee's door, room should be given. This is touted all day long to justify BS pass attempts and the like. HOWEVER, and that is a big HOWEVER, the Corvette in that photo is probably 60% in front of the Porsche. In that situation the pass is MADE. Especially on a straight.
At the VERY LEAST any racer I would want to be on track with, would be gentleman enough to conceed it rules or not.....
I am not debating the bump in 11 because that was in poor taste, but the officials should be the judge on that not a pissed of driver! Pissed off drivers who retaliate REALLY **** me off!
10-14-2009, 01:32 PM
#198
This is not a "Square hit" This is JM intentionally trying to throw his opponent off the race line. That was the the ruling of IMSA and I think they are more qualified than anyone here to pass judgement.
I am very pleased they ruled this as cheating, because this NASCAR crap has no place in Le Mans Racing.
PS I am happy they ruled against Joerg too, both drivers drove in a way unbecoming the sport.
I am very pleased they ruled this as cheating, because this NASCAR crap has no place in Le Mans Racing.
PS I am happy they ruled against Joerg too, both drivers drove in a way unbecoming the sport.
10-14-2009, 01:46 PM
#199
Instructor
10-14-2009, 01:59 PM
#200
Race Director
Post 200... score!
No matter what your opinion on who did what and I'm fairly certain that all of our opinions are made up one way or another, it is shaping up to be a good season in ALMS next year.
No matter what your opinion on who did what and I'm fairly certain that all of our opinions are made up one way or another, it is shaping up to be a good season in ALMS next year.
Last edited by RedLS1GTO; 10-14-2009 at 02:03 PM.