Hey everyone, I've been working on my heel-and-toe downshifting and I have a question about a 2-gear downshift off of a long straight... I may have to ask just because my technique isn't perfected, but anyway here goes.
Running at TWS clockwise I'd be in 5th at the end of the front straight and need to get to 3rd for the turn-in. My last instructor said I need to heel-and-toe to 4th, then the same down to 3rd. To me that seems to add more time than is necessary compared to just going from 5th to 4th to 3rd but keeping the clutch in at 4th. His reason was that you want the drive wheels engaged as much as possible in case you need them, which I can see is good general practice but personally I didn't see how it's necessary. Any thoughts?
Also - I was taught and still find it easiest to use the ball of my right foot to brake, then to rotate on the ball and blip the throttle with my heel. Is that how most people do it or is it more common to use the ball of your foot on both brake and gas?
I agree with your instructor - two separate downshifts into 4th and then into 3rd. When you are comfortable with heel/toe, it all happens very quickly - well under a second so timing isn't a problem. The bigger concern (for me anyway) is blipping off a downshift in a risky spot.
Plan ahead, downshift a little early if you need to, but consider each shift as it's own monster to be slayed. And yep, you're using your feet the same way I do. There are more than one way to do it, but that way works well for many.
hehe, because of the limiter on my car I have to use 5th on a LOT of tracks (it sucks and I'm going to take care of that), so I feel your pain.
While I agree you want to keep the drive wheels engaged as much as possible, do you need them engaged when you are braking? No, you dont, so its fine to do something like this:
1) Keep the Go fast foot planted until you reach the braking zone.
2) off the gas onto the brakes
2a) I even wait a little before i start my heel toe because there is plenty of time going from 5th to 3rd
3) Clutch down, rotate foot over and depress gas
4) Shift to 4th, and release gas
5) Clutch down, rotate foot over and depress gas
6) Shift to 3rd, and release gas, and release the clutch
7) turn in and power out!!!
So people go from 5th directly to 3rd, if you want to speed up the process, but i like my rhythm. I've used this method for years, and I've never had a problem with it.
-Ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewFoundPower
Hey everyone, I've been working on my heel-and-toe downshifting and I have a question about a 2-gear downshift off of a long straight... I may have to ask just because my technique isn't perfected, but anyway here goes.
Running at TWS clockwise I'd be in 5th at the end of the front straight and need to get to 3rd for the turn-in. My last instructor said I need to heel-and-toe to 4th, then the same down to 3rd. To me that seems to add more time than is necessary compared to just going from 5th to 4th to 3rd but keeping the clutch in at 4th. His reason was that you want the drive wheels engaged as much as possible in case you need them, which I can see is good general practice but personally I didn't see how it's necessary. Any thoughts?
Also - I was taught and still find it easiest to use the ball of my right foot to brake, then to rotate on the ball and blip the throttle with my heel. Is that how most people do it or is it more common to use the ball of your foot on both brake and gas?
I've wondered this same question. when I blip and let the clutch out in each gear it seems smoother and more natural then going right from 5th to 3rd in one movement. but I was worried I would be causing unnessicary wear on the clutch by adding an extra step of being in 4th.
Hey everyone, I've been working on my heel-and-toe downshifting and I have a question about a 2-gear downshift off of a long straight... I may have to ask just because my technique isn't perfected, but anyway here goes.
Running at TWS clockwise I'd be in 5th at the end of the front straight and need to get to 3rd for the turn-in. My last instructor said I need to heel-and-toe to 4th, then the same down to 3rd. To me that seems to add more time than is necessary compared to just going from 5th to 4th to 3rd but keeping the clutch in at 4th. His reason was that you want the drive wheels engaged as much as possible in case you need them, which I can see is good general practice but personally I didn't see how it's necessary. Any thoughts?
Also - I was taught and still find it easiest to use the ball of my right foot to brake, then to rotate on the ball and blip the throttle with my heel. Is that how most people do it or is it more common to use the ball of your foot on both brake and gas?
The downshift problem depend on your skill at matching revs with out over reving the engine. it is easier to do that if you skip a gear.
now that said once you are comfortable with heel toe, and revmatching while braking the next step is to skip gears as needed.
as to which way to move your foot I do it both ways depending on which shoes I'm wearing. The skinny racing shoe means I need to brake with my toes and hit the fuel with my heal. when using fat street shoes the ball of my foot is is on the brake and I use the right side to feed fuel.
Andy Pilgrim says never give up the brake (compromise) to hit the fuel. if your foot slips...........your a gonner
Location: ECS Sales and Support, ECSRacing Cream Ridge, New Jersey
I started out going through all gears so 5, 4, 3. This is what I was told to do to ensure I didn't mess up and go to first. I think it is the safest way to down shift not just because of the chance to screw the shift up but also because rev match is easier.
That being said I currently skip gears when I shift. I go 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 whenever needed. It does require a much bigger blip of the throttle, but you get use to it.
Less shifts the better. 5 to 3 is a great move to learn and run. Less stress on the timing chain, drivetrain and etc. Plus you have one less chance of screwing up the RPM match.
Unless your above 152 mph, what are you doing in 5th gear?
and if you are, why are you waiting until the last moment to downshift? Go though the gears, 5-4-3 Unless it is a qualifying TT and you need evey last bit of speed, 160 plus slam on the brakes, downshift 5th to 3rd just prior to turn in on the gas and go
I think your instructor is right about going down through each gear, the car will be more stable especially if you are trailbraking into the corner. As for your foot position for "heel-toe" downshifting, I think that depends more on how close the brake and gas pedals are than any particular technique.
I think your instructor is right about going down through each gear, the car will be more stable especially if you are trailbraking into the corner. As for your foot position for "heel-toe" downshifting, I think that depends more on how close the brake and gas pedals are than any particular technique.
^^If you are in the corner, you better damn not be shifting! All shifting should be completed before you turn-in. Shifting in a corner upsets the balance of the car, which is the last thing you want to do.
Did not include in my original post, but suggest you look into getting a copy of Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win". Lots of info about the subject at hand, as well as a host of other valuable pieces of wisdom and knowledge that can help make you a far better driver than you currently are.
Location: ECS Sales and Support, ECSRacing Cream Ridge, New Jersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Unless your above 152 mph, what are you doing in 5th gear?
and if you are, why are you waiting until the last moment to downshift? Go though the gears, 5-4-3 Unless it is a qualifying TT and you need evey last bit of speed, 160 plus slam on the brakes, downshift 5th to 3rd just prior to turn in on the gas and go
Could have 4.10 gears so would be in 5th sooner. Even with my previous 3.73 I saw 5th often of course I have more hp than many others.
Location: ECS Sales and Support, ECSRacing Cream Ridge, New Jersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Independent1
^^If you are in the corner, you better damn not be shifting! All shifting should be completed before you turn-in. Shifting in a corner upsets the balance of the car, which is the last thing you want to do.
.
Downshift, drop clutch and around in a circle we go.
This thread made me think where I do this and one came to mind immediately. I shift 4th to 2nd and I do it in one swoop. Doing a 2 gear drop means your coming in pretty hard to a tight turn, I want my gear change to be done as I'm into that turn, as mentioned earlier you get used to the bigger blip of the throttle.
I'm trying to imagine what that corner would be like shifting twice.
And I'm jealous about you getting into 5th...you show off, hehe I totally top out my rpm range in 4th at Mosport but havent seen 5th on a track yet.
Less shifts the better. 5 to 3 is a great move to learn and run. Less stress on the timing chain, drivetrain and etc. Plus you have one less chance of screwing up the RPM match.
^^If you are in the corner, you better damn not be shifting! All shifting should be completed before you turn-in. Shifting in a corner upsets the balance of the car, which is the last thing you want to do.
Did not include in my original post, but suggest you look into getting a copy of Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win". Lots of info about the subject at hand, as well as a host of other valuable pieces of wisdom and knowledge that can help make you a far better driver than you currently are.
I didn't see him mention anything about shifting while in a corner
In the Road Atlanta video here, I go from 4th to 2nd into 10A pretty much every lap. Braking down from 135ish to 45ish takes a while (granted it's downhill in that turn) and there is plenty of time to rip off two downshifts. So, are you guys suggesting that a person brake, wait till the RPM's come down, clutch in, blip down through two gears (two blips in other words), then finally clutch out right before turn-in?
I guess I could try it out, but I have no trouble keeping all the pressure on the brakes that they can take. I think - in a straight line - you'd have to hose a downshift pretty bad to really upset the car since so much weight is on the front tires.
Maybe something worth trying - sounds like the transmission doesn't mind it. And btw, I don't use 2nd gear at Road Atlanta anymore - I get all the way around in 3rd and 4th only, so it's a non-issue now.
I started out going through all gears so 5, 4, 3. This is what I was told to do to ensure I didn't mess up and go to first. I think it is the safest way to down shift not just because of the chance to screw the shift up but also because rev match is easier.
T.
Stick that puppy in first by mistake and you are going for a ride.
I rented a used Player's Camaro to someone who hit first instead of third on a downshift at turn 3 on Mosport. He became the new owner of the car, actually about half of a car..
All the books I have read on race driving, and there have been several, is that the less you do the better as it provides fewer chances to make mistakes. Every time you shift you increase the chance to make a mistake. In this case less is more.
Corvette Store
heel-and-toe: 5th to 3rd question
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All shifting should be completed before you turn-in. Shifting in a corner upsets the balance of the car, which is the last thing you want to do.
Downshift, drop clutch and around in a circle we go.
