Kale

Interesting and unconventional perspective on the relationship and value of items in the audio setup. I'll be looking forward to hearing your impressions of it.

Thrash

Thanks for the comments, great points. I will be doing a HUGE deadening which was mentioned and listed in detail in the 1st post. However I disagree with most of your comments. My $50 Pyles WILL sound as good -or better than $600 CDTs on this setup. You are missing the whole point of sound quality source and raising & expanding the stage.

A car is the worse audio environment possible. The sound is on the floor below your ears, everything goes the wrong way and bounces. Think about it, at a concert or theater or even your home theater ... where are the speakers? They aren't below your ears, and there are not just 4 speakers in front of you. Also at a proper concert hall, rear speakers are not needed because of structural acoustics ... which isn't possible in a car -w/o using additional sources/speakers. Additional speakers make up for the lousy acoustics of the bathtub-car interior. It's logic and smarts, not just money or quality. But again, your points are valid and this is just my brain trying to solve.

Kale

I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with that statement.

FrankZ06

I just finished an install in my vette and this is the 4th c6 I've done a system in and I've had a variety of different equipment and subs as well as different processors. I personally didn't like the sound of the focal speakers. I could never get them to sound right. I had tweeters in the a-pillars and moved them back to the door because I think it sounds better in the door. I have one pair of tweeters and mids and it is so loud that I can't even imagine 6 pairs of tweeters in that car. If nothing else, I would be curious to hear what yours sounds like when its done. I've run a audio control EQS and they make awesome processors. When it comes to amps and source units, there is a big difference. I've ran arc audio, phoenix gold, jl audio, and now soundstream. I have a Soundstream Human Reign 4 channel running my whole car with an alpine 9887 and a dash mount clarion eq/line driver and this is the best sound I've had since the days when I use to compete. The jl audio sounded really good, but I almost prefer my old phoenix gold stuff. I know everyone likes the size of the arc amps, but you can't beat a class a/b amp in sound q. Going from a factory deck to a Kenwood top of the line excelon was a huge improvement and going from the kenwood to the alpine was another huge jump. With everything you have going in, I would think about a new head unit. I look forward to watching your install and your thoughts when its all done. I looked into one of the newer audio control eq pieces, they look awesome but just a little too complex.

Thrash

Yeah, I got some tweets (I might not do the pillars and could add them later, I'll try it w/o them first ... but they sounded great on my C5, really raised the sound up).

With the DQXS I can control each pair, even bring them down to 1000hz, or -10db, whatever it takes to level and balance the stage. And I won't really be blasting them (my volume is usually say 3 or 4 of 10 at the most ... except for "Silent Lucidity," which is also my test-tune) and won't be doing any contests, so I think it will be fine.

I also have an Alesis ProTrack and pro-mic that connects to my iPad or iPhone to record levels and db for adjustment ... not a very expensive tool set and lend it out all the time ... ohhhh, those little drain grooves on our sill plate areas - a perfect out for the mic cable

rowdymax

I agree with some of what your saying...But as you state it starts at the source, which is true, it also ends at a source...I think after all the prep your doing, your Pyles will end up in a pile and that could be money towards better components...I worked with Rick and his Hybrid Audio's would make an 8-track sound better....Just think what they could do for all your prep work...
I hope if you put a supercharger on, you don't have K-mart brand brakes and tires!!!! There is a lot of good info on here, I have never seen anybody like Rick, Dennis, Pentavolvo and Markcz say go cheap on speakers...
Good luck and let us know how it turns out and sounds...I'd put my Hybrid Audios up against anything in the price range...

Scott

Thrash

Yeah I know and I hear you, but the specs on these Pyle's are superb (they're even yellow, like my vert, and that's a '+') ... I lined up the specs from Pyle, CDT and Focal ... sorry, but Pyle won. Anyhow, they are not cheap, just inexpensive -from PartsXPress, so switching will be no sweat if I need to. My secret here though is the A.C. Matrix & DQXS, makes even a pig smell sweet (no offense to pig of course!).

And believe me, and I'm not talking smack, just fact ... my A.C. Matrix-DQXS-Pyles will trounce your 8 track-anything-Hybrids-anything. Point is -I control every frequency and level on every one of the 13 speakers, individually, with a pristine signal that has no noise or distortion whatsoever.

Once I'm done and post the install, I will revisit the advice and mention what is working or failing ... gladly admitting anything that comes up short. Thanks Rowdy for taking the time, I know it sounds weird, but that's just me ...

FrankZ06

Just out of curiousity, why would you go through so much work picking components, the audio control piece, active crossovers, line driver and then buy pyle speakers? When it comes to speakers, you get what you pay for to a degree. My budget for any component set was $300. I picked up a set of Boston Pro's for 329 and they sound better than any other speaker I've had with the exception of my old a/d/s speakers. However, what I have noticed is that once you exceed the $300 range the speakers don't really sound that much better. Don't get me wrong, I've heard really nice components you can pick up for $160 a pair. The most crucial part of a component set, in my opinion, is the tweeters. It would be difficult to tell the difference between a higher end midrange from lower end midrange for most people, but a crappy tweeter is easy for everybody. Bad tweeters can make the best system sound like crap and I don't care how much eq you have, you can't get the sound you are looking for out of any brand of tweeter. Trust me, I have tried. I could understand pyle mids with morel tweeters but I have some serious doubts about pyle tweeters. Sound is very person specific but there is a reason why people spend $300 on a pair of speakers. I could be wrong, or maybe it doesn't matter to you, but looking at the equipment you bought, I would think you would be a sound q type of guy.

FrankZ06

I wish you were close so I could hear this thing, first hand, when its done. You have an interesting experiment going on....

markcz

hmmm.... I visit HHI several times a year, after the install is complete I wouldn't mind swinging by Charleston on one of the trips to give it a listen.

Kale

im guessing when comparing specs you were looking at sensitivity power handling xmax and freq response range....


and not distortion graphs or response plots...

fej

You obviously feel quite strongly about your stance on tuning/processors and that your "Pyles will beat anything" system.

Not going to bother saying anything more than you are making a mistake choosing cheap speakers and making all of this effort and spending a bunch of money on processing and amps. That's not debate ... it's fact.

Check Klippel results on a set of Seas or ScanSpeak drivers, vs your Pyle set ... wait you probably can't because no one, not even the manufacturer .. has bothered to do that because the results will be BAD. And no one wants bad marketing.

Take a look at novice class results at sound competitions ... the people building systems on their dimes and not a bunch of sponsorship gear ... you won't see any Pyle component sets .. probably nothing Pyle at all.

You are effectively building a forged 408, adding a Supercharger, and then running a single pipe 1" exhaust. Sure it will still be faster than stock, but really not perform anywhere close to how it should for the money spent because of the bottleneck, or "weak link" the exhaust system would be.

Feel free to post the "specs" you are referencing so some of us that are less informed can learn about their superiority and Pyle's hidden secret of outperforming quality drivers at pennies on the dollar. I am all about dollar to performance ratios.

And you are correct about saying the Pyle's will beat CDT gear .... CDT isn't very good either, just pretty well marketed using low cost, under-performing drivers with gimmicks to make the uninformed lower tier "enthusiast" types feel better about the money they spent to upgrade from stock. (No offense intended to the CDT owners out there). Ever heard of Bose Acoustimass? I have a distinct feeling that you are quite familiar with it ....

Fej

Thrash

Okay, okay ... you've all talked me into it and I now agree about the inexpensive "Piles," - but my approach was that the EQ and signal enhancements would make them sound fine, not perfect. So now I'm going to go with Focal or CDT. And now it's not really much of an experiment either ...

Thus, would anyone like a great deal on my unused Pyle speakers: 1 set 5.25" components, 1 set 6.5" components and 1 set of 3.5" coax??? Just PM me and I'll sell them at 75% of what I paid.

Now I have to chase these down when I was all ready to install, but that's okay, and is why I love the forum. I really appreciate everyone's suggestions to my non-conventional plans, thanks for all the input

Kale

saying speakers dont matter is like saying the television doesn't matter as long as you have a good blu ray player. ..

additionally in automotive enviroment more speakers equals more issues

having a flat frequency response is not equal to a good sounding system

it has no indication of tonality or clarity


still I admire do you not want to use big brand speakers.... there are plenty value price high end speakers that dont come in a set


my inexpensive seas tweeters are some of my favorites.

Kale

I say use what you have it still an interesting experiment... inexpensive way to find out the number of speakers and locations that you actually like

fej

I'm sorry that you have already spent the money.

If you want to experiment, install the front 6.5's, wire everything up for future expansion options, and see if you like the way it sounds. Your ears may not hear a real difference between Pyle and say Focal or Hertz etc. And you can sell off the brand new rear component set for hopefully little loss.

With all of your processing you could probably run a full active system, run over to Madisound and pick up some Seas Reed or similar midbass drivers, pair them with a relatively inexpensive home grade tweet from Scan or Seas and really outperform what you could buy from a $250 prepackaged set. No crossover costs = better quality drivers. Kale could probably help in this regard ... I am out of the loop these days with the newest solid performing values in raw drivers.

If you plan to watch movies in surround sound, I fully understand the rear component set (or coaxials if you wanted, and if you do, ignore the following paragraph)

Otherwise you are adding path, time alignment, and clarity issues to your system that processing likely can't fully fix with your rear component set. You seem to be very concerned about presentation and sound stage, but have you ever been to a live concert with "rear" speakers? I am at about 50 shows in my life and have yet to see them. You are also working in a very small interior environment, and already know about the reflection and path issues that a car environment creates .. not sure why you want to exponentially increase those issues.

G'luck
Fej

Thrash

Wow, now I'm feeling some love (sniff!). I'll nix the CDT and Focal, look over the others. I really appreciate the info.

To address a couple of things:
As to acoustics in a car, you are in a bathtub, things bounce all over. Adding additional speakers controls that bounce by controlling the source and direction. At a concert HUNDREDS of speakers are all across the front stage (L, far L, R, far R, & C) some suspended, some stage level. They set all those levels according to the acoustical bounce in the auditorium, which establishes virtual rear and side speakers. At an outdoor stadium they do the same setup but with more challenging acoustics. When you hear that music it is coming from all sides, even behind you. In a car everything is bouncing to the floor. Time alignment is not an issue in a car as it is such a small area, maybe a bus. Also ... Earphones = 360º of speakers, think about it.

I'm looking into Boston and Scanspeak speakers now ...

Kale

i understand your perspective but its not correct exactly. ill lay some facts when im not posting from a cell phone.

fej

Again, I understand what you are trying to say. But remember that you are dealing with frequency range within the audible spectrum. In our world that basically means 20hz to 20khz.

Let's take 3khz for an easy range. Right around the cut off points for standard premade crossovers in component sets. In your car you would have the following scenario, 8 different drivers (Right front Mid, RFT, LFM, LFT, RRM, RRT, RLM, Rear Left tweet) all playing the same 3khz frequency, with distances from the listeners head varying from say 11" to approximately 40" (through a head rest no less) at varying DB levels depending upon the crossover point and rolloff, efficiency of the individual drivers (not the set) and power being provided to them (lets take the entire tuning scenario out of the equation). And you would be attempting to have all 8 drivers, with all of the listed path length and efficiency problems, to have sound arriving at your head at EXACTLY the right time both to the left and right ears, with the exact same decibel level, in order to accurately recreate a "stage".

Your concert example is more a function of reaching a desired output than it is recreating a "surround sound" situation. There are a couple of professional sound guys on this forum who I think would verify that statement. Why add 10k watts of power to add 6db, when you can add 2 drivers to accomplish the same thing?

In order to properly create a soundstage, you need the sound to arrive at your left and right ears at the correct time to simulate what you would hear at a concert standing in the middle of the stage, with the drummer and vocalist in the center, lead and rhythm guitars on say the right side, keyboard and say horns to the left side. If done correctly you can even make out depth of position as well as location left to right on well recorded music, just as you would be able to at a quality concert with your eyes closed listening live (assuming a centrally located seat of decent quality, not nose bleeds). We can get into all sorts of interaural attenuation discussions, but we are in a car, and a car environment is not a good base line.

A mediocre home system will always outperform an exceptional (not award winning) car audio install. It is a much cleaner environment. Far easier to recreate a "live" experience by controlling reflections, path length/time arrival.

You can tune a properly set up car audio system to image at the drivers head, or in the theoretical "center" of the car with the right INSTALLATION and tuning equipment. I prefer the drivers head myself in a car. And you should have the tuning capabilities to do so as well, provided your drivers are somewhat optimally installed location wise.

But car audio is a giant compromise, with diminishing returns. Hell I have $5k worth of gear waiting to go into a couple of cars and I just don't want to make the effort anymore. I listen to ESPN radio on XM driving around these days and there isn't any point to upgrading from factory listening to talk radio and $hit XM music quality.

At some point this discussion reaches a place like politics or religion, regardless of the argument I present, or the facts, your opinion isn't going to change and your theories/beliefs will remain the same. We probably are not far away now.

But I do ask that you make the effort before you wire up 4 more speakers in your car, to listen to a properly tuned front component set with deadening in place and decent power, with a single sub. I think you will be impressed with the sound from a simple install, and appreciate the "stage" that you can create keeping things simple. Just don't ask that component set to be from Pyle, and honestly CDT may not be a very large upgrade.

G'luck
Fej

Kale

I'm going to be brief.

1) You are worried about signal purity. Adding an EQ. A crossover. A line booster. ANYTHING - effects this. Once you start adjusting the EQ, you've thrown it all out the window.

You are not adjusting to flatten the response of the speakers out. Reasonably high quality speakers have a pretty flat response already. What you ARE removing is perfectly good sound that has gone to trash because of panel vibration, resonance, cancellation and obnoxious cabin gain.

What you are doing, in essence, is buying a high dollar painting and mounting it on a very lumpy wall. Rather than smoothing the wall out, you are cutting holes in the painting so it will stand flat against the wall. Visually, this is very ugly.
Audio wise? It's ugly too if you have more than a tin ear.

That said, I like your bathtub analogy. You can NOT get away from having these problems. You can minimize. But realize that moving your head in the car just a few inches can make your system sound dramatically different. (seat positions in competitions are a popular sore spot.)

FWIW, I have 32 bands on a GEQ and 5 bands PEQ on my system. I have a total of 3 bands adjusted after dealing with install issues and carefully deadening panels/aiming speakers. I have to cut 160 & 200hz because the resonance is deafening. That means I have inaccurate sounding midbass, but the compromise is necessarily.


LOTS OF SPEAKERS:

Headphones are not 360 sound. They are left, right, center sound. This is because stereo is recorded in 2 channels. A disadvantage of headphones, considered by many, is poor staging.

In a car, you can only control if the speakers are in front, behind, or whatever from you.

Yes you are right, sound waves bounce everywhere. And every time they hit a panel, they sound worse. Every time they run into each other, they sound worse (additive or cancellation.) The farther speakers of a single channel (left vs right, there are only TWO channels) are away from each other, the worse the problem is. In a car, you have three speakers per channel in all DIFFERENT locations! (Sub, mid, tweeter.) This is bad!

Time correction DOES help, but its MOST useful when you can correct each individual speaker.


Anyway, the more speakers, the more cancellation, the more reflection, the more room for problems.

You know how people roll their windows down and are amazed that their sub is louder and their system sounds better? Less reflections. Having a ton of speakers makes more reflections. Kerosene on a fire.

Ideally, there would be a total of two speakers in the car, but its impossible to build.

So, compromise. But compromise correctly.