I'm a big fan of Focal Kevlars, though the V3's are polyglass. I'm going to be installing 2 sets of 165KF's into my C6(can't fit the K3P's), hopefully this weekend. I run a custom mid-tweet-mid setup using Focal home kevlar drivers for my home theater and just love 'em. Tight, clean and do music almost as well as they do home theater, especially piano and female vocals.
I've also heard some speakers made from the polyglass. They have a more mellow presentation, but still great stuff.
As long as you're doing a 3 way, I would look into the K2 Power line and doing 165 KBE + 100 KP (6.5 midbass, 4 mid, TN52 tweet). That's what I was going to do before I went Utopia Be....speaking of which, I have some 165 KBEs for sale $450.
As long as you're doing a 3 way, I would look into the K2 Power line and doing 165 KBE + 100 KP (6.5 midbass, 4 mid, TN52 tweet). That's what I was going to do before I went Utopia Be....speaking of which, I have some 165 KBEs for sale $450.
Problem with the new "Power" K3P's is that it's now a 6.5" midbass and a 6.5" midrange!!! I dunno about a C5 but there's no decent way of getting all that into the door of a C6 that I can come up with. That's why I scaled back to the 165KF(or 165K2P if you wanted to drop the extra $$$).
k2p's are worth the upgrade IMO. As for the polyglass 3 way it is certainly a nice alternative to a 2 way polykevlar system although from my experience the polyglass will not play as low or with the same sort of authority in the midbass section as the polykevlar line will. The Tn52 tweet from the polykelvar line is a bit better as well and I will eventually swap my tn51 for it in my own system. At the end of the day though you cannot go wrong with quality, and Focal is definitely quality.
Focal makes nice speakers, but they are expensive. You could get them for less of Da'Bay but you won't have any warranty. If you are going to spend that kind of money you owe it to yourself to go and listen to some different speakers. None of them will sound the same as they will in your car, but you'll get the general idea of what is out there.
I've run Focal 165K2's in 2 different cars and I liked them a lot at the time. The second set I put in well deadened doors and they were 10x better.
I replaced them with some DLS IR6.3's and liked them much better. Now when I go back to my other car with the Focal's I'm not so enthusiastic anymore. Another friend with Focals still likes his better. This all goes back to preference.
What kind of sound are you going for? Detailed, Loud, Mellow, Warm, Laid-back... these are all very subjective terms, but it helps to have an of what you are desiring most. Also, where are you planning to install them? All in the doors? Doors and Kicks? Tweets on the pillars?
Focal = detailed, bright (harsh to some... most of this depends on your install and setup)
DynAudio = Mellow, warm. The guy who introduced me to Focal thought these were boring. Not enough spunk. Other folks love them.
DLS = Smooth, but not quite like Dyns. I like them, but the mid bass don't have great upper range (fine if you have 3 way) and the tweeters weren't much to brag on, but definitely up to par. I replaced them with some LPG25NFA's. Awesome!!
Other stuff that I haven't personally heard. I'll relay on the impressions that are commonly voiced on most forums.
CDT = never heard them, but they seem to be well liked. Euro series stuff used re-engineered Vifa drivers and probably trades a little detail for smooth response.
Seas = Detailed to the extreem, but very smooth. The new reference line just came out. This is a 2-way but it will put most 3-ways to shame. High end home drivers modified for auto use.
Alpine SPX series = Re-eningeered vifa PL mids, ring-radiator tweeter, awesome for the price. Only a 2-way. Decent mid-bass, nice top end.
Or... you can go the DIY route and use Dayton Reference drivers with active crossovers. RS255, RS52 and RS28. Low distortion, high quality, sacrifice some warmth for detailed sound. I put some in a friends car.
No matter what you get install makes all the difference. Sound deadening and sealing up the doors is a must for great bass response. If you can, keep your path lengths close to the same. Mids and tweets in kicks most likely. Sound processing is a great tool to use after you've exhausted your installation options. You might find some speakers that sound perfect in the store and suck in your car. Don't dispare... a little EQ can go a long way sometimes.
Bottom line... Focal makes quality, and relatively expensive, speakers. If the speakers make the kind of music you like then they are totally worth the price. Otherwise they are junk for you.
I'm thinking about getting the 165v3's off *bay. They go for ~450. I'll get a custom plate made for the mid and bass and mount the tweet behind the door pull. Further, I'm going to dynamat the doors. I'm also opting out of rear speakers and just pushing the FO-cals' (*fej*) to the limit. These will be bi-amped BTW. Thanks for all your advice. Keep this thread alive as I know I'm not the only person looking for upper echelon door speakers.
Problem with the new "Power" K3P's is that it's now a 6.5" midbass and a 6.5" midrange!!! I dunno about a C5 but there's no decent way of getting all that into the door of a C6 that I can come up with. That's why I scaled back to the 165KF(or 165K2P if you wanted to drop the extra $$$).
That's why I specifically mentioned building a custom 3 way with the midbass extension (165KBE) and the 4" mid (100KP)....please read the post you are quoting next time....
__________________
2004 LeMans Blue Z06
Focal/Audison Show Car
USACi - http://www.soundoff.org/usaci.htm
Look for me at Texas Heatwave!
Good choice Land, and I am sure you will be happy, spend some time doing the deadening to the doors and messing with your HP crossover point on your mid and you should be gtg. I would start in the 90hz range and work down until it sounds muddy if you have an 18db or 24 db slope to work with. If you only have 12db rolloff it will likely be good down to 80hz or so before getting muddy/distorted.
Anyone hear of Morel or Moral.... something like that ?
I heard a set at a Hollywood,Ca shop in a fx45...man they sounded pretty nice....... what really impressed me was that i was in a different room, these speakers were playing in the Fx and they sounded like a concert from about 100+ feet away.
At 1500+ $$$ they better sound that good !
This FX had a ARC sub in it and I liked the sub so much I bought 1 for my Z06 !
Tim
__________________
2007 Atomic Orange Z06 Custom Audio by 12 Volt Accessories , Az..Z06.com Winferfest IV.. treaded 2002 EB Z06.
Since we are on the subject of Focals', I was pretty much set on getting these and doing a 3 way system in my C6. But the more I read about the Seas Lotus, the more intrigued I become. Problem is I have no where to go listen to them short of plopping down the money and bitting the bullet. I've heard the Focal's K2P and like them alot. A bit on the bright side, but crystal clear...which is what I'm going for...sound quality, not SPL.
I have a couple of McIntosh amps for the fronts and sub, so should have some nice power to drive them. Anyone in the area with Seas Lotus I can listen to?
That's why I specifically mentioned building a custom 3 way with the midbass extension (165KBE) and the 4" mid (100KP)....please read the post you are quoting next time....
Please consider the fact that the person responding to you is far more enthusiast than expert and may have read what you posted but simply misinterpreted it.
Land Jet...
If you put the tweeters in the door pulls they will be much closer to you than your other drivers so... you'll probably have to attenuate them a lot. Nothing really wrong with this but just be ready to get at your crossovers to adjust them before you button everything up (especially if they are installed somewhere inaccessble.)
IF the focal tweets are a little much for you (brightness) which might be more noticable in your door pull location don't dispair. Most tweeter crossover networks are very simple (just a high pass and little if any response correction... correct me if I'm wrong please) and you can replace the tweeter with another (of the same ohm rating) with little affect on the crossover setting. Other tweets you could try are LPG25NFA (silk) or LPG26NA (alum). These are priced around $40 each. The specs are very close to the TN47 in the focal kit. I've got the LPG25NFA and they are awesome. Not to bright but still have the sparkel on the top. Very easy to listen to.
I'm not saying that you'll dislike what you have, its just that this is the main complaint SOME people have with the Focal systems and there is no reason to ditch the whole system IF the tweet doesn't work out for ya. So... If you've got your heart set on the Focals go for it and tweak them to your hearts content. Great quality and a great place to start.
Jay...
The Seas Lotus speakers are essentially the same as the Seas Excel home audio drivers. There are lots of guys over on DIYmobileaudio(dot)com using the excel drivers in their cars. There might be one in the Dallas area who you could meet.
Or... You could check out DIYAudio(dot)com and see if there are some guys using the excel stuff in their home speakers in the Dallas area. I know that there are some OEM manufacturers that use the excel stuff, but I can't find anything on who they are right now. You may be able to go to a dealer and hear some OEM home speakers with these drivers.
It wouldn't be a perfect comparison, but it would get you an idea of the nature of sound these produce. Just a thought.
If you really want a 3-way just build a fully active system with the Seas drivers. Lotus Reference tweets, W12 Excel Mids, and L22RNX 8" Mid bass drivers. That would be sweet! (BTW... McIntosh amps! That is sweet. Its all about those cool blue meters on the top )
Tim...
Morel is another very nice line of speakers. I always tend to forget about them. They are built a lot like the Dyns and DLS speaker... shallow baskets, handle lots of power, warm mellow sound, big on dome midranges. The company is in Israel, which is pretty cool I guess. You'll be the only person on your block with Israeli speakers in your car. The Elate series is the new top end series. MorelHifi(dot)com
On a side note, the Phoenix Gold Elite components were made my Morel. You may be able to get these cheaper. They are an older design but they are still really nice. People still pay massive loot for Dyns and essentially they haven't changed in probably 20 years.
Last edited by TylerHerring; 08-10-2006 at 11:27 AM.
Another point that seems to be as important as the equipment and sound deadening is the placement of the speakers. Looks like there are many that go for kick panel and A-pillar placement of components. I don't want to really get into custom placement, I'd rather use the stock holes for the placement of a 3-way system but was wondering if you can really make a top notch SQ system that way by tuning the system properly.
I have a bit of a radical idea. Instead of going with a traditional HU, I was thinking of going with a Car computer and touchscreen VGA in the double din slot. They make MB with a digital optical out. I could run this into an external D/A converted then run that to an active crossover/EQ (I was thinking something like the Pioneer DEQ-9200. Then biamping a 2-way or triamping a 3-way. That's my plan, not sure if it's a good one or not. Seems like many of the two way systems provide faily flat response above the subs out. Seems like some 3 ways may have too much overlap in the mid to low freq.
Realistically, it is between those Focals and some Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1's. The Infs. are way cheaper and I once had a set of their kappa 6.5" components and loved them. If you are wondering, I'm using a Pioneer deh p9800bt for my HU.
You really need to go to a store and listen to both of these before you buy them. I haven't heard much about the Kappa Perfects so I'll withhold my comments, but it really boils down to what you like best. I looked on the respective websites and Car Toys is a dealer for both Focal and Infinity. The Sound Shop in downtown CSprings is also a Focal dealer.
Pick an odd time when the store won't be crowded and take a few different CD's that you know really well. Something you would be picky about. Make sure the EQ's in the head unit are set flat and do an A-B listening test. Give yourself a few minutes of break somewhere quiet and then try it one more time for a second opinion. This is by far the best way to decide on what you want. Also, a 2-way Focal system will be much more price competitive with the Kappa Perfect system so keep that in mind too.
Another thing that you could do is... If you don't have a audiophile quality home system for a good reference on how the recordings should sound then do an A-B test at the Sound Shop between one of their nice home systems and the car system. This will give you a better reference of where the car speakers are lacking.
And... if you go listening, throw the Alpine SPX-177R set into the mix. These are head and shoulders above the other Alpine stuff (besides the F-1s). They can be had for under $300 on the bay.
Jay...
You can make a one seat wonder with the proper time alignment and EQ settings with the drivers in really bad locations. It's just gonig to sound like poop in the passenger seat. The closer you can get the drivers together the easier it will be to blend them. The closer you can keep the path lengths between the left and right channels the better for a centered soundstage. There is more info on this than anyone can injest at once.
In reality, the quest for the perfect soundstage and tonality IN A CAR is a little silly for most of us. It's such a bad enviroment for accurate sound reproduction. Unless car sound is your hobby then the extra effort required for that last bit of accurate sound presentation is probably not worth the effort. Speakers will sound great in the stock locations, especially if you run active with adjustabe crossovers and an EQ. Tone wise, they may not ever sound better than this... Staging wise there are better places to put them, but is it really worth the effort? Depends on what your hobby is. Hopefully you won't be thinking about instrument placement on your virtual stage while flying down then interstate at 5:00 on a weekday.
As far as using a Carputer with a ditigal out, that would probably be the best way to do it. Then you don't have to worry about noise issues from you DC power supply, which always seems to be a problem. The main issue is that you have no volume control on a digital signal. You would have to have a downstream volume control after the signal was converted to analog. The best way for this IMO would be to feed the digital signal (optical) to an Alpine PXA-H701. This will give you processing for a 4-way system with complete control over crossover frequencies, graphic and parametric EQ's per channel and per channel time alignment. You can control all these functions and the volume from the dash with the RUX-C701 controller. There are other ways to do this too, but this is probably the easiest one box solution that I can think of. The Pioneer DEX-9200 is not worth the money.
3-way with too much overlap... turn the crossover on your sub lower. With a dedicated midrange, the midbass driver can be designed to play lower notes better and not worry about high respose. Play it as low as it will go and blend the sub up into it. More bass up front is better.
I listened to them both at Cartoys and they both are nice speakers. The fo's are better than the perfects, but for the price I think the perfects are a better deal. Price isn't really a factor but if I can get great speakers for a better price, why not? Plus I can just mount the tweeter and woofer in the stock location as opposed to the fo's where I have to find a home for the tweet. This also equates to spending more $$$ on the install, thus making the inf's an even better deal. I won't be using rears, but I will be getting 140rms to the fronts through a bridged 4 channel. Should sound pretty freaking good. I'll also be using a subthump box with 2 MTX 6000 series 10's. They'll be getting about 200W each through a parallel wired Alpine.
Another point that seems to be as important as the equipment and sound deadening is the placement of the speakers. Looks like there are many that go for kick panel and A-pillar placement of components. I don't want to really get into custom placement, I'd rather use the stock holes for the placement of a 3-way system but was wondering if you can really make a top notch SQ system that way by tuning the system properly.
I have a bit of a radical idea. Instead of going with a traditional HU, I was thinking of going with a Car computer and touchscreen VGA in the double din slot. They make MB with a digital optical out. I could run this into an external D/A converted then run that to an active crossover/EQ (I was thinking something like the Pioneer DEQ-9200. Then biamping a 2-way or triamping a 3-way. That's my plan, not sure if it's a good one or not. Seems like many of the two way systems provide faily flat response above the subs out. Seems like some 3 ways may have too much overlap in the mid to low freq.
Comments, suggestions?
Didn't mean to Hijack the focal thread.
Jay
scott_fx can point you in the right direction for carputer stuff. he is redoing his right now i believe.
Land Jet,
Sounds like you've made up your mind. That's great. Don't forget to take pictures and post up your install along with your comments.
Hopefully I'll get to starting on my installation this weekend. I'm a new vette owner (1 month and counting) so I'm loving this forum. Such a great resource. I'll be doing sound dampening first so hopefully I'll have my own install pics on here soon.
Corvette Store
Focal 165v3 worth the price?
)
