Realistic Detailer

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over, but expecting a different result each time.Many vehicle owners start by wanting to take care of their vehicle's exterior paint. Usually, for two reasons IMO. One is because the paint is new, or they bought a used vehicle cheap because of the paint condition was poor.

They will come to a site like this looking for advice, or seek help from a detailer who specializes in paint correction. After a short time of research they realize this is extremely expensive to do. Either you do it yourself, or hire someone else to do it. Either way it is not cheap. Many $$$$ can be spent over the years you own a vehicle that really do nothing as far as protection goes, and will effect the appearance of the vehicle.

I wonder what reasons paint needs to be corrected in all cases? When a brand new Vette is bought, and needs correction makes no sense to me unless there is a reason in the first place. Usually, it is for this reason.



Wax is usually applied to a vehicle for the reason of protecting paint.Although, beyond shine and beading there is very little wax provides in the way of any protection. Considering, wax is greasy in nature it would make complete sense that a layer on paint is a perfect media to collect dirt , grime, and other things much like a fly being trapped on a fly strip.

Now, if it takes for example 16 hours to make a Vette like in the above picture to look presentable. Then I wonder what exactly does wax protects against in the first place. Clearly, it is not swirl marks,or fine scratches . I have seen posts from correction detailers on forums who show black cars that have been owned only months that look this bad.

Many detailers talk about clear coat paint being too hard, or soft. Really, what difference does that make ? Why is it that no one talks about a solution,but instead a labor intensive never ending expensive short term fix for the sake of a shiny car that requires a lot of effort to maintain.I realize the appearance of a Vette is important to resale, and many people who own them new start wanting maintain it right. Although, many give up because of the cost and effort which I find sad.

I find it VERY strange how many people believe as fact that applying many coats of wax, glazes, and polishes is a good thing. If I said I applied a motor oil coat,and then a transmission fluid coat to my paint for protection everyone would think I was off my rocker, but what is the difference exactly. Only that wax is accepted for this use, but does motor oil, or transmission oil protect any better than wax doea? No.
Many people talk about protection, but clearly the only difference between the two is wax makes a vehicle shine.


This is just my opinion, and you may feel different which is fine. Carnuba wax can become rock hard from what I heard , so how could spraying a citrus cleaner on a vehicle totally remove layers of buildup? Not likely, and if anyone thinks using compound does effect paint appearance over time wiil soon find out it does.There is a saying: More is less. If what you apply to the paint (wax, glazes, and polishes)has too come off sometime to reapply the same products basically means this is not a one time deal.

Hopefully, this info will give vehicle owners something to consider when they consider how to maintain their paint finish.

Homer3D

I am not really sure what point you were trying to make here. Some of your sentences are fragmented and hard to follow. If you were offering some insight on ways to provide better paint protection, I didn’t find it. As I read it (and I could be wrong), it seems your stance on the matter is that waxes and polishes are unless because it does nothing to prevent the paint from getting flaws. The only way to prevent the paint from ever getting flaws is to store it in a garage and never drive it. Unfortunately most people drive their cars and as a result, the paint is exposed to the elements…rain, hard water, road grime, bird droppings, etc . To help provide some protection, people use waxes, polishes, sealants.

Your analogy is also flawed. Motor oil vs wax on paint? If you don’t believe the two are different, please feel free to pour wax into your engine at your next oil change. A better analogy would be sunblock. Sunblock is used to add protection to one’s skin against the sun and the damage it can cause. Additional layers of sunblock might be needed to increase or replenish the protection over time as the protection from previous layers may have diminished.

The picture you use as an example is not one from someone that meticulously maintains their paint and probably runs their car through one of those automated car washes. You can tell from that picture that the paint was very neglected and hardly ever seen wax. What can “wax do”? Here is a better example.

My 2005 C6. 7 years old when the picture was taken. Paint is good as new (if not better). I am not sure what you consider to be expensive, but I am using the same bottle of Zaino All in One and Zaino Clear Seal for the last 6 years and it still not close to being empty. All washed/waxed by hand so I probably used about $40-$50 worth of product over the years.



And now the paint on my black 2013 GS. I have moved a machine polisher because the paint was in really bad shape and could not be corrected by hand. There is a larger initial investment to purchase an machine polisher, but worth it over the years I will have my Corvette.

Realistic Detailer

And now the paint on my black 2013 GS. I have moved a machine polisher because the paint was in really bad shape and could not be corrected by hand. There is a larger initial investment to purchase an machine polisher, but worth it over the years I will have my Corvette.nee


Question: Why would an expensive new car like yours being 2013 be in bad shape, and need machine polishing? That seems odd to me given you say waxes offer protection.If that is true, why would you need to step up to aggressive machine polishing to maintain the shine you see in the pics you posted. What will happen when machine polishing will not fix your problem in the future?

0Killrwheels@Autogeek

I too am at a complete loss as to what the original post was trying to offer and describe. A cars finish is subjected to pollutants, environment and other concerns daily. Infact, even when new they are left on a lot until shipped to the dealer. Think acid rain, rail dust, sand and other items.

Wax is simply protection and to help a finish provide a very small but replaceable barrier between it and the environment. What is more important is the proper prepping of the surface prior to the car. This is done thru washing, drying, claying, and polishing. Now polishing can help bring out additional gloss and reflection on neglected or heavily used paint. Newer paint can indeed be helped also but not necessarily thru heavy polishing in multiple stages. Perhaps a paint cleansing lotion or finishing polish is a good start. Then seal and protect with the wax or sealant (synthetic wax).

chupr0kabra

If you've ever seen a car that is fresh from the factory or (worse yet) "prepped" by the dealer's detailer, you'd know why new cars need a good detail. Rail dust alone will cause all sorts of havoc on a new vehicle. Plus, why not get the car perfect when it's already close, then seal it? That's not going to necessitate the need to get more aggressive over time - as you insinuate - but it will have the exact opposite effect.

Additionally, machine polishing isn't always aggressive. Applying materials like glaze or even sealant with a machine is easy to do, saves time and effort, and can be done without causing any degradation to the clear coat. Most people will do a major detail once, get it right, then only turn to heavy cut products and pads for spot correction. Just because you compound a car once doesn't mean you'll ever do it again.


-Mike

Homer3D

Before I answer your question, I have one of my own. Are you actually a detailer by trade as your screen name would suggest? Not to sound too insulting, but if you are you seem to lack the basic knowledge of car paints and protection.

Now to my answer to your question.

Regardless of the cost of the car, the car's paint is subject to a lot of "dangers" while at a dealership. My particular car was sitting at the dealership for over 6 months before I bought it. You don't think the car magically stayed clean all that time do you? Dealerships don't care about the paint's finish like an owner would, so in the automated car wash it goes. And for 6 months, yeah it picked up its share of swirls and scratches. Too much to remove by hand so a machine polish was needed. Since then I have not used the machine polisher because I can easily maintain it by hand with wax/polish/sealant.

What will happen when machine polishing will not fix the problem in the future? Well, I can guarantee you that with proper care (wax/polish/sealant) my paint will never get so bad that it cannot be corrected. But for the sake of argument if it does get that bad, that is when you take it in for a paint job. That will have to be a very extreme case since a highly neglected paint (like in your example) can still be corrected with a machine polisher + proper products and technique.

Realistic Detailer

Let me clear up a few things here. That replaceable barrier of wax will become harder to remove as you apply more layers over the time you own your vehicle.True,permanent damage will not occur at first from paint correction, but each time after will slowly lead to either repainting, or a new car.

I understand very clearly what bad things can land on your paint and stick, but why would you put something on your very expensive paint finish that helps attract dirt and grime to attach better? The term barrier implies protection, but from what?

What many people do not consider is once the clear coat is damaged from over polishing there is nothing that can done to fix it. Now you can cover up this problem with a glaze and more wax, but will never fix it.New cars do have flaws, but most I see do not need 16 hours of paint correction, nor compounding either.That may be the way some detailers handle this problem, but it is not the best IMO.

Hybrid sealants are really much worse than wax. Why? All hybrid sealants offer is wax combined with an additive that allows them to last more washings before swirl marks reappear . It offers no more protection than wax does, and will be harder to remove in the future.

Realistic Detailer

Please explain how I do not know what car paints are, or anything about protection. The picture I posted is just the start of the problem. Yes, it can be fixed now, but give it a few years of your proper care, and I guarantee you will be wrong.I approach detailing much different than other detailers do.I look to prevent damage before it happens, and not wait til it happens and then deal with it.

DWS44

...and your much different approach to protection and preventing damage would be?

Your posts seems to be calling everyone out that "You're doing it wrong" without offering much in the way of constructive means/methods that we "should" be using instead, in your humble opinion.

Homer3D

The only thing you made clear is your complete misunderstanding of products. I will attempt to address some of the statements you made but after that, I am gone. It is like explaining theoretical physics to a monkey. Sure I can spend time explaining over and over again, but in the end that monkey will not have learned anything.
I don’t even know where to begin here. You believe that a layer of wax will sit on a car’s paint forever and harden over time to the point it will damage paint? Even the best wax out there will probably only last a good 3 or 4 months before it is completely gone and you need to apply more wax. You are also confusing wax (a protective layer) with a polish/compound (an abrasive). There are also different levels of compounds with some having more “cut” than others. Using one with a heavy cut too often could result in paint issue or damage.
Are you using wax made of honey? While it is true some waxes tend to attract dust, the paint is left so smooth that a quick drive will usually remove that layer of dust. Also, any dirt or grime will just be sitting on top of the layer of wax/sealant versus sitting directly on your paint. That’s the protection the wax/sealant provides.
What new car are you talking about? The car in your example picture is a C5 so at the very least it is close to 10 years old but could be as old as 16. My new car needed correction due to the mishandling by the dealership and it didn’t take 16 hours. Not even close.
I think I don’t have to explain any further. The statements you made provide enough explanation that you have no idea what you are talking about. My “proper care” resulted in a 11 year old car where people thought the paint was still new the day I sold it. My “proper care” of my 2005 C6 shows a flawless paint finish. Your approach to detailing might be different, but that doesn’t mean it is the correct way. Especially since you have provided no information on your approach other than saying that everyone else is doing it wrong. I am sure there are corvette owners here with cars decades old with perfect paint that will beg to differ when told they are doing it wrong.

Realistic Detailer

Well, what is right what everyone does now? First i would stop using wax and synthetic sealants for a start, and then start using a product like Opti-Coat for an example that can be washed with a real soap and will not wear off.

Realistic Detailer

[QUOTE=Homer3D;1585250645]The only thing you made clear is your complete misunderstanding of products. I will attempt to address some of the statements you made but after that, I am gone. It is like explaining theoretical physics to a monkey. Sure I can spend time explaining over and over again, but in the end that monkey will not have learned anything.

I don’t even know where to begin here. You believe that a layer of wax will sit on a car’s paint forever and harden over time to the point it will damage paint? Even the best wax out there will probably only last a good 3 or 4 months before it is completely gone and you need to apply more wax. You are also confusing wax (a protective layer) with a polish/compound (an abrasive). There are also different levels of compounds with some having more “cut” than others. Using one with a heavy cut too often could result in paint issue or damage.

Are you using wax made of honey? While it is true some waxes tend to attract dust, the paint is left so smooth that a quick drive will usually remove that layer of dust. Also, any dirt or grime will just be sitting on top of the layer of wax/sealant versus sitting directly on your paint. That’s the protection the wax/sealant provides.

What new car are you talking about? The car in your example picture is a C5 so at the very least it is close to 10 years old but could be as old as 16. My new car needed correction due to the mishandling by the dealership and it didn’t take 16 hours. Not even close.

I think I don’t have to explain any further. The statements you made provide enough explanation that you have no idea what you are talking about. My “proper care” resulted in a 11 year old car where people thought the paint was still new the day I sold it. My “proper care” of my 2005 C6 shows a flawless paint finish. Your approach to detailing might be different, but that doesn’t mean it is the correct way. Especially since you have provided no information on your approach other than saying that everyone else is doing it wrong. I am sure there are corvette owners here with cars decades old with perfect paint that will beg to differ when told they are doing it wrong.[/QUOTE/


Since you like calling people monkeys you do agree with then there is no reason for me to respond to your post. Although, let me add a few things to leave you with.


First, (Quote)I don’t even know where to begin here. You believe that a layer of wax will sit on a car’s paint forever and harden over time to the point it will damage paint? Even the best wax out there will probably only last a good 3 or 4 months before it is completely gone and you need to apply more wax.

Answer: N0, I do not believe that one layer of wax will last forever,nor did I say that either.Very few people put just one coat of wax on their cars.
This happens over time, and when your correcting your paint ever 4 months which you state in another post.It seems your perfect finish comes and goes like the seasons.

Second, (Quote) Are you using wax made of honey? While it is true some waxes tend to attract dust, the paint is left so smooth that a quick drive will usually remove that layer of dust. Also, any dirt or grime will just be sitting on top of the layer of wax/sealant versus sitting directly on your paint. That’s the protection the wax/sealant provides,

Answer: I do not use wax. Let some bird droppings sit on that perfect finish for awhile with your wax, and you will see how fast that will go thru the wax and leave a permanent flaw.

Third, (Quote)What new car are you talking about? The car in your example picture is a C5 so at the very least it is close to 10 years old but could be as old as 16. My new car needed correction due to the mishandling by the dealership and it didn’t take 16 hours. Not even close.

Answer: Alright it is ten years old, but that is not the point. I used 16 hours as an example, but it is not out of the ordinary for time. Here is what a random correction detailer says: This IS the norm. 35 hours over 5 days of exterior detailing! Heavy compounding, lots of polishing and swirl removal is what was needed.

I responded to your post, if this still does not compute for you then please keep your opinions to yourself.

0Killrwheels@Autogeek

Opti-coat 2.0 is just one of many newer coatings that are available to protect a finish and offers longer protection versus a wax or sealant. You still need to properly clean and polish paint before applying the coating. If you feel otherwise, perhaps speaking with Dr. G from Optimum (makers of Opti-coat) will offer some additional info. These coatings do indeed help to reduce the need for additional polishing when good wash and dry techniques are used. They aren't however impervious to marring and scratches altogether. Remember when Nissan tried to introduce self healing clearcoat ???

It has been proven over time that properly protecting a finish by wax, sealant versus nothing will keep paint in better condition and can effect resale value also. It is indeed a form of maintenance, some needing more application than others.

Realistic Detailer

Yes I feel otherwise. Most people are not car freaks like some here, and have little time, money ,or interest to learn a complicated and expensive paint correction regiment. Then add the the millions of similar products out there claiming they are the best which makes the paint correction more complex.

One thing I find very interesting is that no company I have ever seen lists their ingredients so people can do research what is in their product. Another thing I find strange is this wax vs paint sealant debate. What few people realize that many companies promote their wax as a paint sealant.

I think you misunderstood what Dr G stated. Opti Coat bonds to the existing clear coat, and any type of wax will certainly not. Also, Opti
Coat is harder than most clear coats on new cars, so given that fact alone marring or swirl marks should not be that big a deal either. That means you can use a soap like Dawn instead of a expensive shampoo that is designed to be mild which will not strip the wax, and with this combination the clear coat finish will stay clean showing the true luster of the paint with just washing, and little detailer spray.

By doing this method, you do not have apply and remove waxes, polishes, and glazes 3 or 4 times a year, and you have REAL protection
from bugs, tree sap, bird dropping, and many other bad things.

In conclusion, here are the facts as I see them:

Waxes offers no real protection, and Opti Coat offers total protection.

Using waxes means correction by either hand or machine, and Opti Coat requires little.

Strong soaps will strip wax quickly, but not Opti Coat.

This obsession for the "perfect finish" is not realistic, and what exactly is so perfect about it in the first place if you need to spend a lot money and time keeping that way 3 to 4 times a year.IMO I do not feel, nor do I believe that using wax vs not using it makes any difference at all given that wax offers zero protection, and not using a real soap vs a "shampoo" because it will strip the wax makes about as much sense as putting screen door on a submarine.Maybe in car shows there is a place for it , but for people in the real world, No.

chupr0kabra

It's a hobby. Simple as that. For some people, clean means running their car through a car wash. For others, it means spending a weekend polishing and buffing. You obviously have your opinions on this and so do others. I doubt seriously you're going to change anyone's mind, nor is anyone going to change yours. That's OK. Differences of opinion help the world go 'round.


-Mike

Boomer111

Still scratching my head on this one.

I use Klasse acrylic sealant apply three coats and usually lasts me a couple of years with no washing and consistent detailing cleaning after every drive. Car is garaged and not a DD and never sees rain.

08 and I get comments all the time on how good it looks for an 08.

MS helps I am sure.

Opti-coat sounds like good stuff maybe when I run out of the Klasse I'll have to try it.

I just used the Nanoskin for the first time and got a very good outcome.

Realistic Detailer

Look if you are happy with Klasse acrylic sealant then I would stay with it. With what you have applied now should last years given the car is in a garage, and never goes out in the rain. I personally have only used one acylic sealant for many years,so I know them well. The reason I mentioned Opti Coat is that is a good alternative to wax,but there are others out there. So many people on these forums jump from one product to another thinking that one is better which normally is not the case.

One thing about acrylic sealants are that separate coats can bond to each other which wax does not.IMO, applying different products to a finish is not a wise move. Stay with one product that works,and wash your car that removes the bad things instead of worrying about whether the wax will come off.

Realistic Detailer

Realistic Detailer

When I go on forums I see these type of posts all the time:
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Unhappy Mysterious substance ruined clear coat on hood.Had ice cream at Cold Stone over the lovely weekend. Was parked for about 20 minutes. Come back out, and there is 3 goo splatters on my hood. It is light brown in color. The consistency kind of looks like chewing tobacco spittle. It doesn't look like bird poo, but there is some white on the edges typical of bird poo.

By the time I got home to clean it off, it of course had dried. Even soaked in water it was a bear to remove. Now there is residue that perfectly matches the shape of the splatter. It's like it was acid that had eaten the clear coat.

1) Has anyone experienced bird poo like this? I suspect vandalism.
2) How to fix?

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The reason I am posting this is to show how fast damage can occur to your clear coat. Sorry to say for this person that more than likely this damage cannot be repaired . If a product like Opti Coat was used this would not have been a problem at all. It would have washed right off very easily with little effort. For the several people who have responded to this post who say they cannot understand what I am saying may be able to relate to this story.

GoFast908Z

It must be Bill....who's been banned on so many forums for this nonsense talk. I'd recognize the bad logic and inability to quote correctly anywhere.


These threads all have the same nonsense.

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/g...-problems.html

http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264082

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/g...-products.html

http://www.7machine.com/detailing-101/65863.html

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ion&highlight=



This one is a classic...