[ZR1] Gentlemen, please educate me on heavy track use and ZR1
05-12-2013, 04:33 PM
#1
4th Gear
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Gentlemen, please educate me on heavy track use and ZR1
Hi guys,
I hope this topic could be very useful...
About me, my first post here in the forum, I'm from Europe. I have driven years on the world's most challenging track Nordschleife with high hp cars, I also do time attack competitions, and race at Porsche Sports Cup. I love most driving at the Nordschleife, that place is very demanding for cars (not to mention drivers!).
In below, I will be asking you dozens of questions because I have either experienced or seen so many sports cars with so many problems at Nordschleife: The car can manage all other tracks but not the Green Hell. For example, the sustained performance and especially the cooling of the engine/brakes/gearbox/diff is often a problem. Another thing is ABS/TC related stuff with the jumps on the track. Also gearing and downforce can be issue with high speeds.
Now, I have a strong Porsche background but I want to know learn about the C6 ZR1 for this kind of use. What is needed and what is the driver experience with this fast car?
I'd be happy if you can drive ZR1 hard on the track with small mods in contrast of starting a big project and rebuilding a Z06 with lots of money to mods. In that case I stick to Porsche due to where I live and my contacts.
If the drivers, racers and the professionals on the forum could comment a bit on the following parts, I would be happy. Just pick a number from below and let me (us!) know...
1) Reliability
How much engine and gearbox failures? Around here there's many Z06 engine failures on hard track use...too many. No clue on ZR1.
2) Cooling and overheating
Please tell what additional cooling is needed for the engine, for the gearbox and for the diff? Are these parts easily available from the forum vendors? Is there some sort of suitable package for all these potential issues? What about the heat with stock engine or with some engine mods?
3) Brakes
Are they good enough? Are there proper racing pad choices for the OEM brakes (Endless, Performance Friction)? Any need of additional cooling or ok just with a fluid upgrade? After destroying the carbon rotors are they easily changeable to some race steel rotors, or do I have to change the whole system? What is the brake consumption, is it relatively similar like with ACR, Porsche GT2 and so on? Is there any ABS/TC related issues that may cause some problems in crests and jumps (these happen in many cars)?
4) Suspension
What upgrades are needed when driving with R-compound tires? Are you able to get proper negative camber with the OEM suspension? What uniball parts do you need for the suspension for precise handling? How satisfied people are with race coilover upgrades, are they worth it / required?
5) Tires
Should be ok with e.g. 19" MPSC and around -3 camber?
6) Drivetrain
Please share your comments on cooling & how many change gearing ratios and to what ratios? How long does the OEM differential take abuse, and what is the typical diff upgrade there? Any need for a better shifter or better gear cables?
7) Roll cages and racing seats
Are there any "plug and play" full roll cages available that only needs the welding and are relatively car and street friendly with padding? I love Porsche's FIA approved full roll cages that are very easy to fit. Racing seat choices should be easy, what are the best choices?
8) Electrical issues
Can you turn all driving stability programs OFF easily so they don't interrupt you? Is there any suitable stability programs for track use, i.e. for driving in the wet? Any annoying issues / error lights / safe mode during track use happening? Any problems with ABS/TC?
9) Upgrading downforce or removing weight
Are some downforce parts providing a notable increase in performance (splitter and wing)? Any easy parts to shed off some weight?
10) Any must have factory options or options to avoid?
Thank you for sharing any of your wisdom, experience or opinions!
P.S. Some one might say pick ACR Viper if you want to try American Muscle for heavy track use. That is a crazy fast car, but it seems for heavy track use at the Green Hell that car needs a drysump engine, roll cage, uniball suspension mods, revised gearing and lots of additional cooling. So, not easy choice either.
I hope this topic could be very useful...
About me, my first post here in the forum, I'm from Europe. I have driven years on the world's most challenging track Nordschleife with high hp cars, I also do time attack competitions, and race at Porsche Sports Cup. I love most driving at the Nordschleife, that place is very demanding for cars (not to mention drivers!).
In below, I will be asking you dozens of questions because I have either experienced or seen so many sports cars with so many problems at Nordschleife: The car can manage all other tracks but not the Green Hell. For example, the sustained performance and especially the cooling of the engine/brakes/gearbox/diff is often a problem. Another thing is ABS/TC related stuff with the jumps on the track. Also gearing and downforce can be issue with high speeds.
Now, I have a strong Porsche background but I want to know learn about the C6 ZR1 for this kind of use. What is needed and what is the driver experience with this fast car?
I'd be happy if you can drive ZR1 hard on the track with small mods in contrast of starting a big project and rebuilding a Z06 with lots of money to mods. In that case I stick to Porsche due to where I live and my contacts.
If the drivers, racers and the professionals on the forum could comment a bit on the following parts, I would be happy. Just pick a number from below and let me (us!) know...
1) Reliability
How much engine and gearbox failures? Around here there's many Z06 engine failures on hard track use...too many. No clue on ZR1.
2) Cooling and overheating
Please tell what additional cooling is needed for the engine, for the gearbox and for the diff? Are these parts easily available from the forum vendors? Is there some sort of suitable package for all these potential issues? What about the heat with stock engine or with some engine mods?
3) Brakes
Are they good enough? Are there proper racing pad choices for the OEM brakes (Endless, Performance Friction)? Any need of additional cooling or ok just with a fluid upgrade? After destroying the carbon rotors are they easily changeable to some race steel rotors, or do I have to change the whole system? What is the brake consumption, is it relatively similar like with ACR, Porsche GT2 and so on? Is there any ABS/TC related issues that may cause some problems in crests and jumps (these happen in many cars)?
4) Suspension
What upgrades are needed when driving with R-compound tires? Are you able to get proper negative camber with the OEM suspension? What uniball parts do you need for the suspension for precise handling? How satisfied people are with race coilover upgrades, are they worth it / required?
5) Tires
Should be ok with e.g. 19" MPSC and around -3 camber?
6) Drivetrain
Please share your comments on cooling & how many change gearing ratios and to what ratios? How long does the OEM differential take abuse, and what is the typical diff upgrade there? Any need for a better shifter or better gear cables?
7) Roll cages and racing seats
Are there any "plug and play" full roll cages available that only needs the welding and are relatively car and street friendly with padding? I love Porsche's FIA approved full roll cages that are very easy to fit. Racing seat choices should be easy, what are the best choices?
8) Electrical issues
Can you turn all driving stability programs OFF easily so they don't interrupt you? Is there any suitable stability programs for track use, i.e. for driving in the wet? Any annoying issues / error lights / safe mode during track use happening? Any problems with ABS/TC?
9) Upgrading downforce or removing weight
Are some downforce parts providing a notable increase in performance (splitter and wing)? Any easy parts to shed off some weight?
10) Any must have factory options or options to avoid?
Thank you for sharing any of your wisdom, experience or opinions!
P.S. Some one might say pick ACR Viper if you want to try American Muscle for heavy track use. That is a crazy fast car, but it seems for heavy track use at the Green Hell that car needs a drysump engine, roll cage, uniball suspension mods, revised gearing and lots of additional cooling. So, not easy choice either.
05-12-2013, 05:45 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
LS7 and LS9 cant be compared when its come to reliability, with that being said, all the powertrain will hold up really well the track abuse IN STOCK TRIM. Many guys here track their ZR really hard and im actually surprise how the ZR1 will hold HIGHLY modded track car. So stock trim wont even be a problem. As for the brake, when the brake are burnished absolutely no problem with the carbon/ceramic brakes. LS9 is bulletproof, the twin disk is stout, really this car is REALLY track ready, ENJOY!!!
05-12-2013, 08:32 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Oct 2007
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Overheating should not be a problem, as your track is very high speed and weather temps are quite mild compared to many US tracks. You will need camber plates if you want more than 2° camber, I believe Pfadt offers them. The brakes work great, although the pads can wear fairly quickly. The trouble with using harder pads is increased rotor wear, which is a lot pricier than a few sets of pads. I would leave all TC/SC off, if you are an experienced driver, when the track is dry and use PTM 3 when it's wet. The drivetrain is quite bulletproof, just change all the lubricants often. The MGW shifter is great for the track, very positive. The close ratio trans and wide torque band should make gear ratio changes unnecessary. The factory has an R compound option, so the car is set up for those tires. The car could use a rear wing, as it's pretty loose with power on in a high speed sweeper. I like the Caravaggio Daytona seat for a dual use car, almost any race seat will fit for track only.
05-12-2013, 10:22 PM
#5
Has it been confirmed that the LS9 is not plagued with the same valve guide wear issue that the LS7 experiences? I believe most of the Z06s "blowing up" at the track are due to this defect.
LS7 and LS9 cant be compared when its come to reliability, with that being said, all the powertrain will hold up really well the track abuse IN STOCK TRIM. Many guys here track their ZR really hard and im actually surprise how the ZR1 will hold HIGHLY modded track car. So stock trim wont even be a problem. As for the brake, when the brake are burnished absolutely no problem with the carbon/ceramic brakes. LS9 is bulletproof, the twin disk is stout, really this car is REALLY track ready, ENJOY!!!
05-12-2013, 11:56 PM
#6
Drifting
Actually the most common reason for Vetts to loose motors at the track is oil starvation. For a heavily tracked or track only car a worthwhile upgrade is an ARE Stage 3 dry sump system.
05-13-2013, 04:25 PM
#7
The ZR1 should be fine as is on track. Take some extra brake pads.
There are some options for roll cages that are easily located with an internet search.
Enjoy the ride, your car will.
There are some options for roll cages that are easily located with an internet search.
Enjoy the ride, your car will.
05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
See below for my comments in red. I've track a 2010 ZR1 for over two years now and I'm a very aggressive driver.
ACR Viper is a great track car, but I think a few strategic mods on the ZR1 will give most ACR Vipers all they can handle and then some. Plus, the ZR1 is a better all around car if you ever want to cruise around the street in relative comfort.
1) Reliability
How much engine and gearbox failures? Around here there's many Z06 engine failures on hard track use...too many. No clue on ZR1.
The LS9 engine and TR6060 transmission are very stout. There have been less than a handful of LS9 failures from what I've gathered. It is highly unlikely you'll have an engine or transmission issue. Honestly, the LS9 is in the same category as the Mezger GT3 engine in track durability from what I've gathered.
2) Cooling and overheating
Please tell what additional cooling is needed for the engine, for the gearbox and for the diff? Are these parts easily available from the forum vendors? Is there some sort of suitable package for all these potential issues? What about the heat with stock engine or with some engine mods?
For the Ring, you will not need any additional cooling mods. It's a fast enough and fairly smooth flowing configuration to provide sufficient airflow. However, if you want to upgrade the head exchanger and radiator, there are some very solid aftermarket options. I'd recommend talking to Ligenfelter and LG Motorsports
3) Brakes
Are they good enough? Are there proper racing pad choices for the OEM brakes (Endless, Performance Friction)? Any need of additional cooling or ok just with a fluid upgrade? After destroying the carbon rotors are they easily changeable to some race steel rotors, or do I have to change the whole system? What is the brake consumption, is it relatively similar like with ACR, Porsche GT2 and so on? Is there any ABS/TC related issues that may cause some problems in crests and jumps (these happen in many cars)?
The carbon ceramic brakes are outstanding. I would NOT recommend deviating from the stock pads. They are that good. I can get 6-8 track days out of a set of pads and replace all of them (front and rear) for less than a grand. They are very good. The rotors will supposedly last 4-5 pad changes. I'm now on my 4th set of pads, so I plan the weigh the rotors (proper way to determine when they need to be replaced) after this set and see if they are below the minimum weight stamped on each rotor
4) Suspension
What upgrades are needed when driving with R-compound tires? Are you able to get proper negative camber with the OEM suspension? What uniball parts do you need for the suspension for precise handling? How satisfied people are with race coilover upgrades, are they worth it / required?
I personally think the magnetic suspension is outstanding. Get a Pfadt camber kit and if you lower the car a bit on the stock bolts, you should be able to easily get over 2 degrees of negative camber. Pfadt does sell a poly bushing kit if you want even more camber and to get rid of the rubber bushings. It shouldn't be necessary though unless you are really beating on the car with true racing slicks and want to minimize the deflection in the suspension caused by the rubber bushings. I wouldn't recommend coilovers as the integrated PTM system and magnetic suspension is one of the highlights of the ZR1.
5) Tires
Should be ok with e.g. 19" MPSC and around -3 camber?
I'd recommend less than -3 camber with MPSC. Anything over 2 degrees should give you what you need. Pfadt has a list of recommended alignment specs depending on how aggressive you want to go and what tires you are using. See link: http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
6) Drivetrain
Please share your comments on cooling & how many change gearing ratios and to what ratios? How long does the OEM differential take abuse, and what is the typical diff upgrade there? Any need for a better shifter or better gear cables?
No need to upgrade the gear ratios. Make sure get the PDE option though if you have a later model ZR1. That will give you the 'original' aggressive gear ratios. The OEM differential is effectively bulletproof. No need whatsoever for a diff or transmission upgrade. Regarding shifter, I'm quite happy with the stock shifter, how an MGW shifter helps shorten the throws a bit and makes the shifting a bit tighter. I had an MGW on my '08 LS3 Vette and it's a nice unit for sure. Just haven't felt compelled to get the MGW for the ZR1 at this point, but it would be fine for sure.
7) Roll cages and racing seats
Are there any "plug and play" full roll cages available that only needs the welding and are relatively car and street friendly with padding? I love Porsche's FIA approved full roll cages that are very easy to fit. Racing seat choices should be easy, what are the best choices?
No plug and play roll cages that I'm aware of. I'd recommend a harness bar and integrated roll hoop as a solution unless you really want a custom cage which would be good for the Ring. I recently got Cobra Suzuka GT seats with Shroth harnesses and they are very nice seats. The shop had to modify the mounting plates, sliders, and rails to get everything to fit though. A bit disappointing in that regard as it wasn't a plug and play solution for sure. Honestly, if I had to do it all over again, I would talk to John at Caravaggio and get his Daytona seat upgrade. Best of both worlds. Great around town seat, but also works great at the track too. Not to mention, it would actually INCREASE resale value versus reduce resale value unless you put the stock seats back in before selling. Most used ZR1 buyers aren't going to want Cobra seats in the ZR1.
8) Electrical issues
Can you turn all driving stability programs OFF easily so they don't interrupt you? Is there any suitable stability programs for track use, i.e. for driving in the wet? Any annoying issues / error lights / safe mode during track use happening? Any problems with ABS/TC?
I run in PTM race mode 5 and it's very nice. However, hold down the traction control button for 8-10 seconds I think and EVERYTHING is turned off, no traction or stability control. The electronic systems in the ZR1 are very solid. ABS works great too.
9) Upgrading downforce or removing weight
Are some downforce parts providing a notable increase in performance (splitter and wing)? Any easy parts to shed off some weight?
You can get race seats and lightweight battery for easy weight removal. Obviously gutting the interior works too if you really want to reduce weight. Aero helps a lot. I'd recommend a ACP World Challenge wing or the LG GT2 wing with corresponding race splitter
10) Any must have factory options or options to avoid?
If you get a newer ZR1, make sure it has the PDE performance package. Otherwise, the 3ZR package is nice and adds to the resale value as most owners will pay the extra $10k USD for the "fancy" package.
Thank you for sharing any of your wisdom, experience or opinions!
P.S. Some one might say pick ACR Viper if you want to try American Muscle for heavy track use. That is a crazy fast car, but it seems for heavy track use at the Green Hell that car needs a drysump engine, roll cage, uniball suspension mods, revised gearing and lots of additional cooling. So, not easy choice either.
How much engine and gearbox failures? Around here there's many Z06 engine failures on hard track use...too many. No clue on ZR1.
The LS9 engine and TR6060 transmission are very stout. There have been less than a handful of LS9 failures from what I've gathered. It is highly unlikely you'll have an engine or transmission issue. Honestly, the LS9 is in the same category as the Mezger GT3 engine in track durability from what I've gathered.
2) Cooling and overheating
Please tell what additional cooling is needed for the engine, for the gearbox and for the diff? Are these parts easily available from the forum vendors? Is there some sort of suitable package for all these potential issues? What about the heat with stock engine or with some engine mods?
For the Ring, you will not need any additional cooling mods. It's a fast enough and fairly smooth flowing configuration to provide sufficient airflow. However, if you want to upgrade the head exchanger and radiator, there are some very solid aftermarket options. I'd recommend talking to Ligenfelter and LG Motorsports
3) Brakes
Are they good enough? Are there proper racing pad choices for the OEM brakes (Endless, Performance Friction)? Any need of additional cooling or ok just with a fluid upgrade? After destroying the carbon rotors are they easily changeable to some race steel rotors, or do I have to change the whole system? What is the brake consumption, is it relatively similar like with ACR, Porsche GT2 and so on? Is there any ABS/TC related issues that may cause some problems in crests and jumps (these happen in many cars)?
The carbon ceramic brakes are outstanding. I would NOT recommend deviating from the stock pads. They are that good. I can get 6-8 track days out of a set of pads and replace all of them (front and rear) for less than a grand. They are very good. The rotors will supposedly last 4-5 pad changes. I'm now on my 4th set of pads, so I plan the weigh the rotors (proper way to determine when they need to be replaced) after this set and see if they are below the minimum weight stamped on each rotor
4) Suspension
What upgrades are needed when driving with R-compound tires? Are you able to get proper negative camber with the OEM suspension? What uniball parts do you need for the suspension for precise handling? How satisfied people are with race coilover upgrades, are they worth it / required?
I personally think the magnetic suspension is outstanding. Get a Pfadt camber kit and if you lower the car a bit on the stock bolts, you should be able to easily get over 2 degrees of negative camber. Pfadt does sell a poly bushing kit if you want even more camber and to get rid of the rubber bushings. It shouldn't be necessary though unless you are really beating on the car with true racing slicks and want to minimize the deflection in the suspension caused by the rubber bushings. I wouldn't recommend coilovers as the integrated PTM system and magnetic suspension is one of the highlights of the ZR1.
5) Tires
Should be ok with e.g. 19" MPSC and around -3 camber?
I'd recommend less than -3 camber with MPSC. Anything over 2 degrees should give you what you need. Pfadt has a list of recommended alignment specs depending on how aggressive you want to go and what tires you are using. See link: http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
6) Drivetrain
Please share your comments on cooling & how many change gearing ratios and to what ratios? How long does the OEM differential take abuse, and what is the typical diff upgrade there? Any need for a better shifter or better gear cables?
No need to upgrade the gear ratios. Make sure get the PDE option though if you have a later model ZR1. That will give you the 'original' aggressive gear ratios. The OEM differential is effectively bulletproof. No need whatsoever for a diff or transmission upgrade. Regarding shifter, I'm quite happy with the stock shifter, how an MGW shifter helps shorten the throws a bit and makes the shifting a bit tighter. I had an MGW on my '08 LS3 Vette and it's a nice unit for sure. Just haven't felt compelled to get the MGW for the ZR1 at this point, but it would be fine for sure.
7) Roll cages and racing seats
Are there any "plug and play" full roll cages available that only needs the welding and are relatively car and street friendly with padding? I love Porsche's FIA approved full roll cages that are very easy to fit. Racing seat choices should be easy, what are the best choices?
No plug and play roll cages that I'm aware of. I'd recommend a harness bar and integrated roll hoop as a solution unless you really want a custom cage which would be good for the Ring. I recently got Cobra Suzuka GT seats with Shroth harnesses and they are very nice seats. The shop had to modify the mounting plates, sliders, and rails to get everything to fit though. A bit disappointing in that regard as it wasn't a plug and play solution for sure. Honestly, if I had to do it all over again, I would talk to John at Caravaggio and get his Daytona seat upgrade. Best of both worlds. Great around town seat, but also works great at the track too. Not to mention, it would actually INCREASE resale value versus reduce resale value unless you put the stock seats back in before selling. Most used ZR1 buyers aren't going to want Cobra seats in the ZR1.
8) Electrical issues
Can you turn all driving stability programs OFF easily so they don't interrupt you? Is there any suitable stability programs for track use, i.e. for driving in the wet? Any annoying issues / error lights / safe mode during track use happening? Any problems with ABS/TC?
I run in PTM race mode 5 and it's very nice. However, hold down the traction control button for 8-10 seconds I think and EVERYTHING is turned off, no traction or stability control. The electronic systems in the ZR1 are very solid. ABS works great too.
9) Upgrading downforce or removing weight
Are some downforce parts providing a notable increase in performance (splitter and wing)? Any easy parts to shed off some weight?
You can get race seats and lightweight battery for easy weight removal. Obviously gutting the interior works too if you really want to reduce weight. Aero helps a lot. I'd recommend a ACP World Challenge wing or the LG GT2 wing with corresponding race splitter
10) Any must have factory options or options to avoid?
If you get a newer ZR1, make sure it has the PDE performance package. Otherwise, the 3ZR package is nice and adds to the resale value as most owners will pay the extra $10k USD for the "fancy" package.
Thank you for sharing any of your wisdom, experience or opinions!
P.S. Some one might say pick ACR Viper if you want to try American Muscle for heavy track use. That is a crazy fast car, but it seems for heavy track use at the Green Hell that car needs a drysump engine, roll cage, uniball suspension mods, revised gearing and lots of additional cooling. So, not easy choice either.
05-13-2013, 08:07 PM
#11
See below for my comments in red. I've track a 2010 ZR1 for over two years now and I'm a very aggressive driver.
ACR Viper is a great track car, but I think a few strategic mods on the ZR1 will give most ACR Vipers all they can handle and then some. Plus, the ZR1 is a better all around car if you ever want to cruise around the street in relative comfort.
ACR Viper is a great track car, but I think a few strategic mods on the ZR1 will give most ACR Vipers all they can handle and then some. Plus, the ZR1 is a better all around car if you ever want to cruise around the street in relative comfort.
05-13-2013, 10:19 PM
#12
Race Director
This is what I am aware of, all from the CF. No conclusions drawn, and this is a very small sample, but prudence
(i.e., proper inspection) may be required before the factory warranty (incl. powertrain portion) expires...
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1583568292-post45.html
05-13-2013, 11:01 PM
#13
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
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