Black89Z51

Sorry for the novel, but I think it's a good read, and may save someone a motor, or at least some money on a retune or expensive repairs.

So originally I had my car (2007 CTS-V) tuned at VA Speed by Shawn. I took the car up there one morning, and they said they were going to put it
up on the dyno when I got there. I told them I just put on the Kooks 1 7/8" headers, high flow cats, and Corsa cat back, and the PO
had installed a K&N CAI. I also mentioned taking it to a few HPDE or TT events per year.Unfortunately there was a C5 on there at the time.
I waited around the shop for an hour or so waiting to take a video of it on the dyno. They were having some issues with the C5 and told me that it would probably be better for me to go and come
back when they were done with it. They did take a video of one run with their iPhone and mailed it to me, which I'm grateful for.

I was tickled pink. They gave it 25 more hp than it came in with.

Then along came a post about VA Speed quality control issues, which in that post was another link, and eventually it was like a daisy chain of problems with one thing in common,
VA Speed. I replied to one of the posts about being concerned about my tune, and was contated by Ed Hutchins, most of you have probably heard of him. Ed inquired what car I had, and when I had
it tuned. I quickly shot him back an answer, and alas, he had already left VA Speed by then, so it wasn't his tune. Then he offered to check out the tune, for FREE. That's right, zero dollars to check it out,
of course there would be a charge for dyno time if need be, and I was well and prepard to pay for dyno time since there were several threads I have read on this forum and another popular one about bad tunes costing
expensive motors, and VA Speed not wanting to warranty work. Not unless you put out a post that caught the attention of a hundred people or more. Then, of course, they had no choice but
to try to fix the problem. To little to late, IMHO.

Ed plugged in the laptop and turned the key on the V. After about 5 minutes, he just muttered "Hmmph". I asked "Hmmph good or Hmmph bad." I knew the answer already, but still wanted to hear it. He just replied,
"Hmmph, what in the hell were they thinking."

As it's explained to me, the knock retard recovery rate is set from the factory at 0.05 (3k RPM and up). Typically it will be often triple to 0.15. That's the time the computer will take to put back in timing after a knock event.
If you go higher, the computer will put timing back in so fast, it will just knock again. I'm not a big fan of knock mainly because I don't have the money to buy another LS2. Shawn set my knock retard recovery rate
to 9.0. Yep, he increased it by 9,000%. So basically, if the motor would knock, it would add the timing back in so fast, it would just keep knocking. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure knock is bad on pretty much anything moving up
and dowin in the motor.

So I pulled up the original dyno chart I was handed when I left VA Speed, and Ed just shook his head, along with some other employees at a shop, which will remain unnamed unless they want to be mentioned.

The big concern was the AFR. It was way rich (>12.0:1 at times), and waved around a lot. Also the HP and TQ curves indicated knock events in the upper RPM range (annotated by the wavy lines from 4.5K+).

Here's the graph I scanned in:




So I just told Ed to put it on the dyno and I'd just pay for a retune.

He did, and untouched, this is what it churned out:




Look how lean it is from the hit to 4.5k rpm.






Ed took a little while and this is the 2nd run's results:





AFR's look much better:




So Ed went ahead and tweaked it a little more. He said typically you want the AFR at 13:1, but since I am racing it once and a while, it's a little more rich
to be safe.

Look how smooth the HP and TQ curves are will hardly any wavyness. Also the AFR line is damn near unwavering:




I just felt that I needed to post this up for people thinking about going to VA Speed for a tune. I couldn't keep that tune in my car
with all the recent problems with QA that have popped up. The money I spent with Ed is more than worth the peace of mind.

A few afterthoughts as well. I had to take the car back up there to get the CEL shut off because they didn't shut off the cat monitoring
O2 sensors like they said they did. They also said my O2 sensors were acting slow. Well a little research shows that when you put headers
on a car, the O2 sensors don't get as hot, and therefore they respond slower. The ECM expects a fast response, and will set off a CEL if it isn't
fast enough. Shawn told me I needed to change my O2 sensors, but low and behold that didn't solve the problem. Changing the parameter to expect a slower response
will keep the CEL from coming on.

Ed also went out of his way to change the 1 to 4 skip shift, and he also adjusted when my fans come on so that the car runs cooler.

Honestly, I think VA Speed did an initial dyno, changed the fuel curve and knock recovery rate, ran the dyno again and then called me up. I'd like to believe that
they spent some time on it, but in actuality, it's more likely they just called it good enough, and sent it out the door.

Ed also requested I bring the car back to him after I ran some seafoam through the car to see if he can add some more timing. He's also going to keep it overnight
to check the cold start and cold driving. Something VA Speed never even inquired about.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think I'll set foot in VA Speed ever again.

waddisme

Thanks for posting. These kind of threads add value to the forum. Maybe VA Speed will chime in and give their side if they have a reply - even more value. Sounds like a nice save. Not sure what Ed's plans are, but you need to let everyone know where he ends up. Probably a lot of ex VA Speed people will be looking for him. I know I would just for peace of mind.

Black89Z51

Ed is back doing tunes himself. Contact him via pm on these forums. edcmat-l1 is his name on these forums.

XtremeVette

Wow I had a similar experience (not quite to this degree) with another tuner/vendor on here (that I will leave anonymous). Chuck Cow got me all straightened out. I really think there should be a certification that you must pass to be able to tune cars. I mean so much damage can happen if you don't know what your doing OR worst yet...you THINK you know what your doing and end up causing harm to your own car or worst...you do harm to someone elses!

Gray Ghost GS

It's an unfortunate pattern of poor quality dyno and street tuning (since Ed left), substandard work and questionable customer service from this shop over the past several months... Some members were fortunate enough to find these critical problems before they lost an engine or worst, while others were not as fortunate. The CF is a great place to ensure members get their vettes serviced by competent performance shops and vendors. Glad to hear you had your issues resolved by Ed. I get a feeling Ed will be 'fixing' a lot of VA Speed tunes for those that haven't been reading the threads here....

Black89Z51

Ed has already fixed several tunes done originally by VA Speed. He said the mine was mild compared to some of the tunes he's seen done by Shawn.

I hope they see the err in their ways and correct the problem. Either that or hire another tuner.

Phil97SVT

As I said in the other thread....

- You had va speed do some work/tune june/july maybe
- couple months go by
- you return to have only a check engine light addressed over those few months you noticed no driveability or reliability issues
- few more months go by and no concerns
- january almost 6-7 months later you talk to Ed and somehow the tune gets questioned
- you never once called Virginia speed and expressed any concern for the tune after ed suggested it might need to be tweaked
- during those 5-7 months no concerns were expressed to Virginia Speed
- you have Ed tune your car 1st week in January
- 3 days later you post a thread expressing your dissatisfaction with their tune
- a week after the **** storm thread is posted you call virginia speed to express your dissatisfaction

Sorry but its a dick move to bash a vendor(I dont care who it is) before you give them a shot to fix the issue.


Shawn has been tuning my car for the last few years and I've got zero complaints.

Black89Z51

I see you've found this thread and decided to troll it here too Phil. And I also see you're still hell bent on the fact that I didn't take it back to VA Speed.

For the last time. AFTER THE FIRST TUNE WAS FOUND TO BE GARBAGE, I DID NOT TRUST VA SPEED TO TOUCH MY CAR AGAIN. PLEASE ALLOW THAT TO ENTER YOUR OBVIOUSLY VERY THICK SKULL.

You have too much personal interest in this matter.

Shawn's built and tuned your motors for a long time. You're on what, the 3rd engine from VA Speed now?


For those who'd like to see Phil's unrelenting ability to keep harping on the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over, go here:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomete...ver-again.html

Phil97SVT

How about this you do the same thing to ANY other vendor and guess what, My position is the same. You can put your spin on the story but facts are facts. I've got no emotion or feelings in this debate.

Looks like Ed gave you some misinformation.
- Virginia speed did not orginally build my motor
- I melted a piston due to an injector not firing
- Shawn stated he did not want to rebuild the block after the melted piston because the previous machine shop offset bored the block making it thin on one spot, I signed a waiver stating that when the motor went(we knew it would happen) not to hold VA Speed liable.
- The 1st motor block cracked due to offset boring from the 1st machine shop which Shawn said was going to happen.

I just recieved my 1st "Virginia Speed" motor at the end of last year. So now you have the facts.

Gray Ghost GS

I read through this thread and it doesn't appear to be about Phil's motor.... I also couldn't find where it said "Ed told the OP" anything about Phil's motor.... now back to your regularly scheduled program. Since I'm not a tuner, perhaps Phil can tell us why Shawn would set the knock retard recovery rate to 9.0, and increase of 9,000%, which would allow the motor to keep on knocking, and how that would benefit the OP at WOT on a road course like VIR or Road Atlanta.

Phil97SVT

- Your 100% correct, the thread is not about my motor
- The OP Tried to take a shot at the reliability of a Virginia Speed motor
- I merely corrected his inaccurate statement

As far as the knock retard rate, I am curious also.

Out of curiosity was the car brand new from a dealer or was it purchased Pre-Owned and was Virginia Speed the 1st party to touch the tune?

Black89Z51

Pre-owned. I picked it up from a Cadillac dealer local. I asked VA Speed if it had been tuned prior to them, and they told me it was stock. The only thing the PO (prior to me) had done was a Magnaflow catback and a K&N FIPK. I removed the Magnaflow and put on Kooks, high flow cats and Corsa cat back because the Magnaflow droned too much for me.

Black89Z51

I've talked with VA Speed 3 times now. Apparently Shawn is too busy to talk, so I've been talking with Shannon. First off, she's obviously VERY pissed off about this thread. Secondly she has a hard time letting me talk, often talking over me and interrupting me. She doesn't understand cars, by her own admittance so when I talk about the tune she doesn't understand. When I explained what kind of damage spark knock causes, she had no clue what I was talking about.

Anyways, to the meat and potatoes. I talked with Shannon on Monday. She asked for the tune file that Ed pulled off my car before he made any changes. I sent that to her almost immediately. I also asked for their tune file. I've been waiting now for 2 days for this tune file. I called her today and asked for it. She says the guys are busy and can't send it to me until they get to her request to look at it and send it. So I asked "I'm under the assumption now that I have to wait for your file when I sent what you asked for upon request?" Her reply was "That is a correct assumption." I then pleaded with here for just 10 minutes of their time to send it to me. All of us know good and well that a file can be send in less than 2 minutes.

I'd also like to point out another quote from Shannon: "We have a good idea where this is all coming from." Really Shannon? Don't even begin to hint about Ed insinuating any of this. This has nothing to do with him or you.

And a second quote: "How do we know Ed didn't just change it so he could get money he needed via another tune and make us look bad?" Please. My car isn't anything special. He even said if it wasn't for the knock recovery table, I would have been fine, although not ideal by any means.

All I can assume right now is that VA Speed is trying to come up with a good story to tell me, along with making the files different in order to cover their tracks.

I don't think this is a company ANYBODY should be dealing with, EVER.

Black89Z51

Here is a few emails that came from VA Speed and myself. Hack-job shop at best.


Shannon,

Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.





(To clarify, the Red is Shawn's text and the Blue is my rebuttal)

Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.


That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.


To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.


No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.



Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.


I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.


The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.


Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.


The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.


This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.

This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.



So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.


I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.


The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.


Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.



It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.


This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.

The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.


Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.


The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.


As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.


This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.


I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".

Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.


There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.


While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.


Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.


In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.

Thank you for your time with this matter.

Sincerely,

Bryan

Black89Z51

This was the reply I received:


No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....

So I shot this back:

And this:

XtremeVette

I feel your pain Bryan. For any shop to not stand behind their tune, regardless of how much time has past is just plain bad business...PERIOD!

Most tuners will offer free and or lifetime support on their tunes...PERIOD. Shoot some (including my tuner) will tune your car for free and if your not completely happy with it, will return it to stock...at no charge! It is the ones that pull the kind of crap they did to you that give all good tuners a bad rap.

All I can say to you...is basically chalk it up to a learning experience and thank your lucky stars you got it fixed before you had any problems. I was out $600 for my "tune". I never addressed it, complained or brought it up with the original tuner or on any forums. I purposely never went back to the original tuner when I felt something was wrong for that main reason. Just like what happened to you, I did not have any confidence that they could fix the problem...nor did I want to take a chance on it. So I learned from my experience...when getting your car tuned...really REALLY do your homework first. Find out everything you can about the company your about to work with and more importantly about the tuner. A reputable past history as well as trusted references is a great way to go. This is much better then just finding someone off a forum, web or from a person that says...oh yeh John Smith...he's a good tuner.

Like I mentioned I really believe there should be a certification course every tuner must past to be able to work on a certain car. Just like mechanics have.

Black89Z51

Just an update. I have discovered that instead of facing the recent rash of unhappy customers, and their internet threads, Va Speed has decided to stop sponsoring ls1tech.com and corvetteforum.com. While most companies would face the allegations head on, and let everyone know what they're trying to do to improve their product, and renew customer relations, Va Speed has went the opposite way and have decided that sponsoring the internet boards is either too problematic or not worth their time. To me, stopping their sponsorship of these boards is just an indication of not wanting to address the real issues. Regardless what you think of it, the fact is that at no point in any of the threads concerning their work, have they even one time given any indication of wanting to improve their quality and have only deflected blame on others.

I just thought this was significant information anyone seeking any type of work would want to know before choosing to have this company do anything for them.

Gray Ghost GS

Virginia Speed could have addressed their significant "housekeeping" issues and provided a detailed action plan to improve quality control and customer service, which most everyone on the forums would have welcomed vs. running away with their tails tucked between their legs; maintaining the status quo of "customer beware - we offer no warranty".... and boy, you're gonna need it. I believe these forums are better off without their sponsorship. Perhaps they could learn something from the other more reputable shops and vendors here and on LS1tech. Time for them to put the 'training wheels' back on for awhile until they can successfully ride again for their customers. Once again, their actions speak volumes....

Madhatchz

After reading all these doom and gloom threads about Vaspeed, a rock started to sit in the bottom of my stomach about the tune they put on my car. I thought about it for awhile and decided getting a second opinion on my vet would be a good idea. First off, Ed is not who i went to for the second opinion. Also im not going to say who the second opinion is so this isnt a "Vaspeed vs whoever" thread.

After getting the second opinion the new tuner told me the tune that was on the car was safe, and there was no funny business with the knock sensors or any other sensors. So my car would of been completely fine with the tune from Vaspeed, which was a relief to hear. With that said, my new tuner put his own "finger print" on it if you will, and i am loving the new found throttle response and the car feels stronger! There are a couple reasons i will not go back to Vaspeed and it is a personal choice.