AZZ-KIKR

I did a search, with not much luck on the subject.. I was curious about those of you who are running E85 on your boosted cars.

I currently have an 02 ZO6, stock bottom end, with A&A's stage II procharger kit, car has headers, hi flow cats, 46lb injectors, KB BAP, GHL exhaust, snow performance meth kit, etc.. At 8-9 psi I put down just under 660/559 rwhp (SAE) and 553 rwhp uncorrected @ 5300 DA.

There have been several cars around here who have made the switch to E85 and have experienced great HP gains.. 40-50+ rwhp on average. I understand that I will need to swap injectors, possibly new Fuel pump, etc but I wanted to get some more opinions on the subject..

For example.. Can or do you still run Meth when running E85, or is that just overkill?

What if you run into a situation where you can't get to a station with E85, what do you do then, e.g. put regular 91 or 93 octane in it, limp it home, etc?

For me, just like most, I am looking for more ways to get the most HP out of the current setup w/o necessarily adding more stress to the engine, etc. My drive train is all built, including clutch, tranny, rear end, etc. So I am just wanting to get the most out of it before I really go to the next step, which is forging the engine, turning up the boost, etc.. The car is a street car and will only be down the track a few times per year..

Any thoughts on this along with the pros and cons, would be appreciated.

sydneyACE

I have been doing a little research on this myself. It seems like a good idea to me. Look over in the LS1 and LS1tech forums. I have found quite a bit of info over there on the subject.

*I haven't personally run E-85, I'm just summing up some of the info I've found in my own research on the subject, so please take it only as that.*

This seems to be a strongly debated topic. Some guys claim to have great gains using it with no drawbacks, others claim that Ethanol is VERY corrosive. The guys that claim it is corrosive usually aren't the ones actually using it (probably because they're scared it will eat up thier fuel system). From what I understand it must be tuned differently (obviously) because there is less energy per volume in E-85 vs gasoline. This will also cause fuel economy (miles per gallon, not necessarily mile per $) to decrease.

The fact that there is an increase in HP without higher risk of detonation isn't really debated (it's kind of common sense). The E-85 has a higher octain rating. It burns slower, and more controlled. There is a small amount of added cooling effect with the E-85, but I don't think it's so much as to say Meth would be useless with E-85.

As far as fuel pump and injectors, MY assumtion (and it is only an assumtion): Because E-85 packs less energy per volume, it would require a higher volume of fuel to produce a comparable amount of HP. If your fuel system is close to maxed out on gas, then it will probably require an upgrade for E-85 especially since the whole point is to increase HP. (Which would require more GAS anyway.)

As for the tuning (stranded with no E-85) concern: From what I've read, the tuning seems to be too dissimilar to try and run gas on an E-85 tune. If you carried a lap-top, or one of those mini deals, you could swap your tunes in a pinch. Just keep your current gas tune saved, and re-flash it to the car if you needed to. You might also look into this really cool set-up called Road-runner. Road-runner is actually a "PCM emulator" which goes in-place of the factory PCM and allows real-time tuning adjustments to be made (it can also be flashed and used just like the factory PCM). This would make it super easy to switch back and forth between tunes provided you had a computer in the car. I run a car PC so that's why I like that idea (I could adjust/switch while driving).

As I said before, these are just my summaries and thoughts on the subject, so take it as that. I just like discussing these types of topics. It's nice sometimes to have a "fresh" subject.

jmoody66

I have been researching this and you will need to upgrade your injectors. I was told that in order to do it right you would need the sensor setup that flex fuel cars use along with a tune so that it senses when you change over. I would think meth would be overkill at that point but then again its also used as a cooling medium in addition to the octane boost. Im no pro but it makes sense.
Im following the responses on this one cuz Im installing the Ysi setup with the A&A fuel setup and 83lb injectors and would be very interested in going E85 since I have a station right around the corner that sells it and this is strictly a fun car.

sydneyACE

jmoody66:
From what I've read, it isn't necessary to have the flex-fuel "sensor setup" unless you plan to switch between fuels often and want it to be automatic. Even then, I would think you would need a "flex fuel" PCM that would be able to switch between two different fuel trims based on the sensor's reading.

dsmlights

the Flex fuel sensor is to check the amount of ethanol in the mix as in the winter time they swich to a e70 blend or so to help with startup...

If you want to run e-85 you would need to run at least 2 fuel pups, maybe 3 depending on the power you want to make and also you would need some 1000cc injectors to support fuel... E85 takes about 30 percent more fuel to run.

I say E85 is great if you drive your car in town and street race it and track it alot. I don't think it is good as far as daily driving because in the end it will cost more than 93 pump. I say stick with 93 and meth. Specially since you do not run your car all the time, you will save $$ in the long run.

I personally Run Q16 on my 4banger that makes 700+ and will be switching to e85 when i get back from deployment. But I only drive this car on weekends or when I am gonig to race. the diff price from e85 to Q16 is a big difference.

MJD

I've been running it for over a year now with no issues. Right now I'm still NA and getting ready to add boost. At 442rwhp my 42# green top injectors run about 80% duty cycle and I run a BAP. I run about a 10:1 AFR on E85 compared to a 12.5:1 I ran on gas. I'm only looking to go low 500's after adding boost and am already budgeting a fuel system in just in case I don't have enough pump. If you go E85 I'm guessing you'll need bigger injectors and an aftermarket fuel pump at the least for the power you'll be making. If you're tuned for E85 do not run gas and I would think meth would be overkill. I don't even plan on having an intercooler when running E85. There is a tuner out there that does a flex fuel tune for E85 but I think he's in Minnesota.

iced98lx

I run e85 in one of my two cars.. If you know how to tune for it, it's easy to do. It does not require a special PCM, or a sensor. You will need to flow MORE fuel than you would with 93 octane pump gas, however. If you already have a large fuel system finding your way to e85 isn't going to be a big investment for most.

I don't see how someone said it would cost more, must be more expensive in other parts of the country, it's usually at least 10 cents a gallon cheaper here.

There's a tuner in South Dakota, Andy @ DynoTune USA that is "known" for his e85 work on lsx engines. There are several (a few on this forum) running around over 1000 hp thanks to his handy work.

My suggestion: talk to people who have actually run it, or people who are professionals and work with it. There is just so much bad information running around out there.

AZZ-KIKR

Exactly what I plan on doing. I have a tuner here who has been doing several e85 cars and he will most likley be doing the work, but I always like to get some "real world" information on the subjects as well.

Thanks everyone!

iced98lx

Sounds like you've got it under control. It has lots of benny's for boosted cars!

AZZ-KIKR

I am getting there. I would still like to know if it can be used in conjunction with the Meth and what happens if you get into a situation where you might not have access to it, say if you're on a trip, cruise, etc.

iced98lx

You can use it with Meth, but most tuners will tell you it's not needed. If you run out of e85 and can't find it, as I did in the middle of south dakota over the summer, you whip out the laptop, load up the pump gas tune that is conservative and take it easy until you can find e85 again. I just ran it till it was below an 1/8 of tank, pulled into the station, loaded the pump gas tune, filled the car with 91 octane, and away I went.

I'm sure they can load the tunes on a handheld, i'm a HPTuners guy myself.

AZZ-KIKR

Good to know about the "lack of e85" situation.. Guess when I go on cruises or a road trip, I can just map out the stations along my route that have it..

I suppose I could use the meth, which I currently run 50/50 for it's cooling properties more than anything.. Overall I think this would be a great mod and might help me obtain my goal of 700 rwhp on a stock block with no more than 8-9 psi..

1 BAD BURB

E-85 is a god send for boosted or nitrous cars. I have seen first hand the difference in power output of 92 pump vs e-85. its not THAT much a of a gain on a n/a car (about 3% rwhp gain) vs a boosted car (10%+).
the thing positives are:
-you will get no knock
-add timing (or take away, whatever was better i forget)
-higher octane (105 octane)
-cheaper gas
-hot igniting fuel = more power
-burns 100% efficiently

you can add a couple more psi of boost and still run WAY safe.

to the OP, you do not need to run meth with E-85. if you switched to corn, you would easily see over 600rwhp uncorrected.

and the fuel is NOT corrosive to our engines. there are MANY people running this fuel with no issues! A local college did a test on a 96 (?) tahoe with a 5.7L Vortec motor. bone stock, just changed the fuel pump for added fuel usage. ran the motor for 70K and then tore it apart... NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM!!! in fact, better wear then a normal pump gas. if i find the link to the vid, i'll post it up.

there are a few problems:
way sh!tty fuel mileage due to increase of fuel usage
limited stations to buy, so if you're on "E", you are really "S.O.L"
need to upgrade to at least ONE bigger high flowing fuel pump as well as larger injector.

Andy Wicks of Dynotune USA (Watertown, SD) is THE guy who does dual tunes. he is not in MN but frequently visits his good friends here. If i switch to corn, he will be doing my setup.

generally speaking, the gains of E-85 over pump is definitly there and many have been using it with positive results.

Aj

AZZ-KIKR

Thanks, Aj! From what I have been reading you're spot on with the results that I have seen with the few cars I know that are running it.

I don't care about mileage, buying a new pump and injectors is pretty cheap for the HP gains you will see.. Overall the pros outweigh the cons by a long shot.. I think this is the route I am going to go..

Any recommendations for a new pump and injectors along the source to get them from?

No Juice

I am one of the minnesota guys who uses Andy for tuning. I have been running a boosted flex-fuel car for a few years now with no issue. I don't have any special sensors, or special lines just Andy's flex fuel tuning, a walbro, KB BAP, and 60lb injectors. The car makes about 550rwhp on a complete stock motor and did I mention its flex fuel? I don't have to worry about being stranded with no E85 stations around.

AZZ-KIKR

Great thanks, NJ!

Overboosted

I run E85 in my Supra. 80mm turbo @ 25 psi = 830 RWHP. I dont even mess with race gas anymore.

I have never had any corrosion issues, although it will eventually be a factor, that's just the nature of ethanol. But when it comes to comparing Q16 vs E85 pricing.... it's a no brainer, it's about a $10-11.50/gal price difference. I know there was a topic over on the Supraforums about a tuner advancing timing so much that they started losing power. NO DETONATION!!! For a street fuel on a boosted car I dont know that it can get much better. Another benefit for the turbo guys is the fact that you are creating so much more energy with the fuel that you actually get a better spool.

Trouble with E85 is the low number of stations carrying it. Also, the fact that the blend does change throughout the seasons depending on your area. However, if you get a few 55 gal drums and a pump, you could have enough to last you for a few months or more depending on your driving distances and habits. Most people are aware that you will have to run a larger fuel system to keep up with the required increase in fuel flow, once again, just the nature of the fuel. Some may be able to get away with a Boost-A-Pump and larger injectors. With that being stated, you will notice a drastic decrease in fuel economy, in my Supra, which is a 80/20 (cruise/race) car, I see about 9-11 mpg.

There are a lot of myths and fairy tales that go along with E85 that it usually scares people from using it. However, the stories that most people tell about it are usually people who have never used it. If you are properly set up for it then there should be no issues with it. Same goes for any fuel.

PROs: 105+ Octane, turbo spools faster, knock protection, no meth needed, cheaper than 93 or race fuel, MADE IN USA .

CONs: Hard to find, 30-40% more fuel is required (larger fuel system), Corrosive elements, gas mileage goes down significantly, blend changes from E70 to E85 throughout the year.

There is a lot of information about E85 out there if you are willing to look for it. Here are a few websites that got me interested in the fuel:

E85 Mustangs (Good Information)
E85 Station Map
Seasonal Blend Chart

sydneyACE

Thanks, Overboosted.
That's some good info. It's nice to hear from people that have already done it. From what I can see, the investment is relatively minimal. The most expensive part will be the tune for most. Some will need to upgrade thier fuel system to accomodate for the increase flow demands.
I'm kinda suprised that more guys aren't running this. I guess they're kinda scared. Maybe once people start seeing more success with E-85, more guys will get into it.

What kind of prices do you normaly see? Do you run a second tune in the winter when the quality changes? Do the fuel stations make it obvious when they switch to winter blend? (Is it posted on the pump or anything?)

Overboosted

Yeah, I think all of the corrosion talk really scares a lot of people. But like I said, I have been running it for some time and I have been pulling my pumps to check the fuel sender, which is the most common thing to experience corrosion damage, and I have not seen anything. However, by knowing the chemical properties of ethanol within itself, I do know that it is a corrosive compound. I have heard from many people that you need E85 compatible pumps, lines, rails, and injectors. However, I have twin Denso (stock Supra) pumps, -8 AN Fuel Lines (not teflon lined), and aluminum rails and have not seen any problems with that setup yet either. Remember, most gasolines now have 10% ethanol in them too....


The tune is really not that big of a deal, its just adding more fuel and knowing that E85 likes to be on the rich side. My idle is about 13.8:1 vs. 14.7:1 on gasoline. Of course remember I am using just a FJO Wideband, which is nothing special, just a solid reliable box. Every wideband runs off lambda, then converts to the more popular air/fuel ratio conversion. So, even though E85 stoich is 9.7:1 and gasoline is 14.7:1, they still read the same on the meter because it is just reading lambda and converting.

E85 - 9.7:1 / Lambda - 1 / 14.7:1 -Reading on wideband
Gasoline - 14.7:1 / Lambda - 1 / 14.7:1 -Reading on wideband

So, now you know that you do not need a special wideband for tuning with E85. Most people say you do, but it is not true.

Now as far as pricing goes, right now it is at $2.32, 93 is at $2.72. Not a huge difference, but when you consider what you can do with E85 it is a HUGE difference in performance.

It is optimal to run the summer tune year round if you don't want to change it with the blends. Reason being, when it becomes E70 there is more gasoline in the blend. So, if you just run the E85 tune, you will just run a little more rich. However, if you tune for the winter E70 blend and get some E85 you will run lean. Reason being is you tuned for less fuel flow because of the gasoline in the fuel, now that there is more ethanol in the fuel you need to supply more volume to the rails. I run my Summer tune year round. Mainly because I do not drive in the winter all that often anyhow. But, once again, the tune is really not that big of a deal.

As of right now, there are no indicators at the two stations I use the most of what blend is in the pump. Of course, the attendant is oblivious to the fact that they even have E85 at the station So, best bet is to either get a tester, which is about $15, or just go by the chart. You will see a difference if you are running a wideband. The reason for the change is simple, the colder the weather the harder it is for ethanol to combust, so they add more gasoline, which is a more starter friendly fuel.

Here is more good links if you are looking for even more information:

E85 Price Map
Wikipedia - E85
Wikipedia - E85 in standard engines

If you have any more questions about it, please post it here. This is a valuable source if someone wishes to run this great fuel. I am by no means an expert, but I can do my best to share my experiences with the members.

iced98lx

It's been a long time since I talked to Andy, didn't realize he was doing flex-fuel style tunes, that's quite awesome. Might have to send mine up there for a tune like that. Lugging the laptop around isn't bad on the trips i know i might need it, but nice to not HAVE to have it.