67 327/400

Hey guys, my name is Rick. I normally raise hell in CFOT, but due to a massive head cold, compliments of my son, I am surfing C1's today.

Another thread about engine restamping got my brain ticking about the issue and how it's ruining this hobby and creating victims who don't have the eye for re-stamping.

I have read a couple of incidents where people have bought cars at auctions, such as BJ for big coin. These are usually low mileage, big money cars. After these cars are bought, and their info is online for everyone to view. Usually a car owner comes forward and claims that they own that car, and they have owned it since new. Is that confusing?
Example:
Mike buys a 1967 BB VIN # of 123456789.
Bill contacts Mike and informs him that actually he owns the real 67 BB with the VIN of 123456789. Some one had copied his VIN, made a replica car and sold it for large coin to the suckers at BJ.

How hard would it be to put together a book of current REAL matching number cars with their real current mileage. A book one can reference before they attend Mecum or BJ and get scammed themselves?

Oh, and if anyone steals my idea, I'll see you in court

wmf62

a great idea, but not very practical in the real world... it would be expensive, time consuming and limited to its input and use.

and who are going to be the 'experts' that are going to certify these cars?

your idea, how about you volunteering?

67 327/400

Does the DMV or insurance companies keep records of cars that were totalled out in wrecks? How about stolen vehicles that were stripped down?
In one instance I read an article that one of the cars purchased at BJ, was a car that was actually totalled and crushed decades ago. But a VIN number was surfaced and suddenly the car was reborn. So I would think it would be easier to find out whats out there, by researching what was totalled, stolen and what not.

I travel for work. If I could figure out a way to put this together, I'd volunteer my time.

1955 copper

Nice thought but will never happen ! Hell here in Ca. If you show the frame number only or ID plate number only you can get a pink slip . I know of Corvettes in different states having the same ID number because of this. When states start crossing information between them in a data base many Corvettes having the same serial number will pop up. Then what? Who owns the real Corvette. What (is is) is the money involved over these Corvettes, meanly the BB C2's

vettebuyer6369

Whaaaaat?

OK, I'm dense today, but how would this work? Someone finds out the VIN of a real "car" then they go through the mid-boggling effort of "creating" a copy??? How exactly does the counterfeiter "make" the VIN on the body? Fake the VIN tag too? And the VIN on the frame?

The previous owner(s) of course would have SOME title history... right?

I understand restamping a block to match a car... but completely building a car... all numbers included... to "match" a VIN? Sounds kinda impossible.

67 327/400

I dont know how they get away with it, but it happens. It was one of the big lawsuits against BJ.
I will do a google search to pull up the article.

ZLX

Not likely at this point...


A guy owns a BB coupe and wants a SRIII frame so he keeps
his car and sells his frame to a guy out of state- A state with
more liberal title laws.

It's been a while since 8th grade science class but Im pretty
sure that Photosynthesis has just occured because the vette/cell
just split.

Once these Photosynthesis cars go through the hands of a few more owners there is no telling what kind of messy situation would occur if
you tried to say whose car was the authentic one.

People getting hosed at Barrett Jackson?

I'm not sure what they were expecting... you can go and get
a nice body, nice paint, nice engine fully restored car in primo condition at BJ... But if you want to go beyond that and spend
on a premium pedigree car the person checking the facts
better be you... and your fact checking better not be reading
the Barrett Jackson auction catalog.... I thought PT Barnum's
words were well known.

ahphares

This may be the information referred to:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/11/b...tled-customer/

Andy

ahphares

Sorry, wrong link

Andy

67vetteal

This topic became relevant when the dollars started entering our hobby. Fraud is criminal anyway you spin it. Thieves or egoists chasing thier prey. I remember when an Elapsed Time meant more than the cars value. Oh for the good old days! Al W.

rgs

A friend is a mechanic for Williams Brothers, known for formula racing. He was approached one day about a certain formula car he worked on that had significant racing history. The person identified himself as the new owner of Lola chassis #xxx, (that's how the cars are identified) and wanted to talk about it's history. My friend informed him that he did not have the car and the person argued with him. My friend opened up his tool box and produced from a pile of chassis plates, the original plate from the chassis in question, showing it to the person and informing him that he always removed the plates when they destroyed any chassis.

Another famous vintage Ferrari race car was almost completely destroyed in an incident. It was rebuilt from the ground up with all new parts and the original chassis plate put on it.

Who knows what constitutes "original" anymore!!!

Dan Hampton

I think what the originator of this thread would like to do is what the Shelby Club (SAAC) has done over a period of years. They have documented and cataloged 99% of the Cobras that were manufactured between 1962-1967. It is very difficult to fake an original car, given the vast history that the Registry has compiled. This is a much easier task because of the fact that only 1,000+ cars were manufactured. My car, for example, has a history that goes back to the original owner, details the complete race history, the ownership chain, etc. If anyone were to "fake" this car, the prospective buyer need only to look at the Registry to check the current ownership status of the car and make a call to SAAC.

nassau66427

I believe the word you were looking for is "parthenogenisis".
I am not a biologist but I do listen to Canned Heat.

Stingray1967

If one were to try a build an Authentic Vette Database, the proof of who had the REAL car would come down to documentation (rare prior to 66) or ownership history.

This would be a monumental task.

zadspal

The topic of engine stamping is one that I am not opposed to However, I think a complete car being replacated or whatever the case may be, without some reason is a bit far fetched. These stories should start off with "Once upon a time!" (spoken in a soft womanly voice). This is something that I don't feel like is impossible but, it would have to be an extreeemly rare case. How rare? might you ask. I don't know other cars like I do Corvettes but I will say that if someone goes through the trouble to re-make a Corvette (replica) it would have to be a certain favorite like the "Bounty Hunter" or one with some famous history. There are way too many project cars available for a person to just pull a VIN out of the blue and say "I'll build this number". If a certain car with history is reproduced or replacated, most everyone would know it's BOGUS! There is normally detailed records kept and documented owner history when a famous car changes hands. In the case of the Lola formula racing car mentioned above I would say that a non-educated person had been taken. I would also think the proud new owner of Lola was trying to search for owner history or any documentation to validate his car when he learned it was a fake. Any person capable of spending an excessive amout of money for one of these cars should already know that you don't just take a chance on someone's word. A paper trail is always best! The original poster of this thread mentioned another thread that spawned his idea for this one. I believe the mentioned thread was a warning about engineslimited.com Chris vs Randy. The main issue was an engine stamping gone wrong and had nothing to do with replaca cars. Engine stamping is a subject that is highly controversial in the restoration world. My opinion about it is, if you can repro parts, paint color, interior patterns, red stripe yellow stripe or white wall tires ect. then there is nothing wrong with putting a dated correct engine in your "Restored" car with a restamped pad. When a restored car is claimed to be "Original" it may or may not have a restamped engine. Here again as mentioned earlier in this post, any person that has the capability of spending top dollar should educate themselves. One last point: For those who blame NCRS for making a mess of our hobby, you also need to condem BJ for the show that we all love to watch. Unless you have solid proof of a car being "Original" the best advice to follow is, Buyer Beware!

67 327/400

But seeing that I am about to get laid off (airline pilot) I retain my flight bennies and could travel the world to find this info. Oh, not to mention all the time in the world I would have to do this research.
Plus I have a FIL in the insurance industry....he said he's going to check today if he can find a DATA BASE that shows any destroyed vettes.

Thanks guys

ctjackster

complete cars (I assume you mean from the VIN on up) might not be replicated, but more valuable Corvettes are routinely "created" from a plain jane C2 with a VIN - sometimes these are found out because the base car used for the "project" is a known VIN, such as was the case with the 67 Shriner car that someone (unfortunately for them) decided to use for an effort to create [fake] a 67 L88. We also havea well-known case of a 67 L89 being created (back-story and all) from a 67 C2 that started out as something else.

The sad thing is, the Corvette community has never favored "recreations" or "tribute cars" as are now being done with other rare 60s cars, like with the Superbird, certain Mustangs, etc. THere are some very talented people out there who have been turning out what amounts to "clones" and "tribute cars" but there hasn't been any one willing to sell such as such [i.e. honestly] - I think there is probably a market for these types of cars, even if sold honestly as a recreation.

ctjackster

good luck Capt. And many of us would happily support your effort to create such a database - suggest you subscribe to Keith Martin's Corvette Market magazine and his "CM Plus" database, which lists all of the cars he has observed at auction over the years by VIN.

Reggie Dunlop

These are cars, not plants.

Red Rochester