DJ Dep

I'm pretty sure this is an "old school" modification to the 4-speed trans.

http://www.libertysgears.com/proshift.htm

Wondered if it's still effective. Liberty Gears is no slouch when it comes to making transmissions, so I don't think it's a hack job.

Dep

gerry72

It's not old school. This is how you make a syncro trans into a crash box. This is not something you would want to do on a street-driven car. The purpose of slickshifting is to address the gear inertia and resultant slow engagement as the blockers try to get the slider up to mesh speed. Anyone who has driven a stick may have experienced the problem that the trans gets rather difficult to get into gear quickly at very high rpm(like 7k and over). The crash box eliminates the blockers so that you can effect a very fast shift but the shifts are brutally harsh. Not much of an issue on a drag-only car but on a street car, you'll get some good experience in double-clutching and having the driveshaft banging around on gear engagement.

DJ Dep

gerry: removing every other synchro tooth was being done back in the early 60s. That's what I meant by old school. It was an iffy mod back then and usually ended up screwing up the trans. This seems to be a sturdier imrpovement on it. But thanks for the info. I think this may be EXACTLY what I will need!!!

Dep

gerry72

I know the syncro trick. The evolution to the crashbox was the syncro for those who were dead broke, then grinding out the slider and engagement teeth, then a crashbox.

You may be somewhat aware of this but a crashbox is nothing like a clutchless trans. I have driven a crashbox. More manly men may feel othewise but this is not something you would do for a car driven even occassionally on the street. Dedicated drag car, yes it's great and can be beat only by a clutchless, dual slider. Your first non-full power, high-rpm shift will leave you wondering what the hell happened to your car. Most people who do a slickshift conversion do it only to the top gears since that saves some funds. It also allows the trans to be used on the street with some compromises for the slickshifted gears.

DJ Dep

gerry: Thanks again. No street driving for me at all. I can't afford clutchless, but this crashbox mod I think I can do.

Question:
Would I still be using the clutch at all or would it be strictly holding the gas pedal down and ramming it into gear? Does it affect the longevity of the trans at all? I assume it shortens it.

Dep

gerry72

It actually extends the life of the trans under racing conditions since the gear is either in or it's not. There is no "going into gear" phase. This is why it bangs your driveshaft even with the clutch in.

Yes, you can shift it clutchless if you pull on the handle hard enough but that's not really how you use it. You need either a dual slider or a face tooth engagement to do real clutchless shifting. To really get the most out of it, you have to pay real close attention to your clutch setup. You want the clutch adjusted to just a wee bit beyond the point where you wound fan the clutch on a shift.

Crashboxes do shift very fast so your time on the clutch is virtually nothing. They take a lot of practice to get it down but once you do, they make a syncro trans seem like a very poor way to get from one gear to the next. One other thing...downshifting a full crashbox will be a real challange.

DJ Dep

Thanks Gerry!!! This is a great amount of valuable info!!!!
Sounds like EXACTLY what I want and need!!!!
Again...no downshifting for me. Shifter will be a Hurst V-Gate 2 which is also not real "downshift friendly".

Dep

stingr69

I built a Muncie using Moroso "Slick Shifted Sliders" that has every other tooth removed. They worked fine on the street. I did it because they were available individualy cheaper than buying a whole synchro assembly back then.

-Mark.

427Hotrod

You GO DEP!!

Real men drive cars with 3 pedals...and MANLY men drive crashboxes on the street!

I've built crashbox Muncies for the street and once you get the hang of them, their fine for a street toy. You can even downshift once you get the hang of it...even with a Vertigate!

But I sure love my G-Force...that sucker is just incredible. No synchros, face tooth engagement and a blast on the street or track!


I agree...you'll wonder why you ever used synchros!

JIM

DJ Dep

Mark: I went to Moroso website but it looks like that item was discontinued. This item from Liberty Gears seems to be a more advanced version of what you installed.

JIM: I can't hold a candle to that beast you are tooting around in!!

Dep

lostpatrolman

Jim, care to give us more info on your trans?

DJ Dep

I found the website for Jim's trans:

http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/

Hey Jim, is that $2500 for a complete G-Force T-5 trans?

The G-101 looks like a beefed Richmond T-10. And the price...YIKES!!!
$4000 samolies!!!!

Dep

stingr69

Dep,
Yes they probably are disco'd. If I was looking for a *****-out Muncie, I would probably call "Old Man Engineering" up in Lancaster NY (near my home town Buffalo). That guy has been building trannys for a long time. Sells Long shifters, and sells to the circle track boys mostly. I buy used Muncie stuff once in a while from him too. He has a little web page out there somewhere if you do a search.

-Mark.

DJ Dep

Mark,

Found the website for OME....

http://www.oldmanengineering.com/

Looks like the Old Man passed away and the son is running things. They also moved to North Carolina. Also looks like the M22 he is selling is the same one from 5speeds.com.
He definitely has some cool stuff for oval track racers!!

Dep

stingr69

Very sorry to hear that. I knew he was quite sick but I had not heard about him passing. He will be missed by myself and many other friends and customers. That guy realy knew how to build a Muncie right.

I will check out the site again and see where the buisness is going these days.

-Mark.

CGGorman

This is one of the single most informative threads I've read in some time. Not that I ever plan on needing any of this info, but you can never know too much, right?

Thank You.

DJ Dep

LOL...sometimes I get things EXACTLY right. This was an accidental thread. I was just curious about that mod from Liberty. I also learned a LOT of info. Thanks to all that posted!!!!

Dep

427Hotrod

I've got the GF5R trans...it's just great.

It "looks" like Richmond or Doug Nash 5 speed, but the case is much heavier and the insides are all different. The gears are all straight cut and they are engaged with what's called face tooth engagement. Basically the slider has some big 'ears" that engage some big slots on gears. If any of it wears out, you can replace each piece without changing gears.

It's designed for road and drag racing. Though it has an external Long shifter (LOTs different than a Hurst) it actually has internal rails that the forks slide down. Very stable setup.

This thing just shifts incredible. it's ridiculously priced, but G-Force is a great company to work with..I can't say enough about their customer service..just incredible. The trans is rated to handle 1300 HP..so maybe that leaves me a little cushion!

Interstingly, it's only slightly noisy in 4th gear..it's quieter than the Nash was with helical gears. You can also "feel" the difference when you 'spin" the input shaft. The machine work is so nice it just freespins even with grease in it!


They have a "drop in" kit for the T-5 that looks killer. I would think it would be 10 times better than a Tremec for serious toys. It uses straight cut gears and the face tooth engagement setup. They say ou can send them any trashed T-5 and they can install guts or they will sell you parts or sell you a whole trans.

JIM

DJ Dep

JIM: HOLY CRAP!!!! $5000+ samolies!!!! LOL...I'll say it's ridiculously priced!! But it DOES fill a need. I have a question...is this 5-speed set up for getting economy in 5th gear or is it performance in all 5 gears. I have NO interest in economy in any gear...I want performance in EVERY gear. Just curious is all. Cripes..I'd have to win the lottery or eat meatloaf for a year to save the money to buy one of those
Was it a simple bolt-in replacement or did you have to do some major mods to crossmember or floor to get it to fit?

Dep

427Hotrod

I already had a Doug Nash 5 speed in it, so it was a bolt in. I have made the crossmember removable, but it's not absolutely necesssary..just easier if you play with it a lot. It actually will bolt in place of 4 speed without work.

It's a direct drive in 5th. Since I wanted 3.07 final gears, I spec'd trans to allow drag racing in first 4 gears and then go to 5th in cruise mode. It would be better to use all 5 gears on the track and keep engine in tight rpm band....but I'm doing that "best of both worlds" deal.

My ratios are 3.25/2.22/1.65/1.33/1.00.

Trust me...I went through major sticker shock...but I finally had to cheek up..there just aren't many sticks that will hold up to what I have and what I do! This dude has made countless full throttle powershifts without a wimper! I can't say that about some of the previous stuff!

"It doesn't cost anymore to go first class..you just can't go as often!!"

JIM