Oil Filter Experts
03-20-2005, 11:31 PM
#1
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Oil Filter Experts
I'm wondering why GM went to a smaller filter size with the PF46 (PF44 and UPF44), over the PF52 (of the C4). Doesn't the shorter length means less media area to filter oil? I don't believe the clearance excuse because GM could have just designed in the filter placement higher.
By using less media filtering area does this mean GM feels the PF52 is overkill for the Corvette V8? How much smaller can they go? Why not just use 2 smaller filters then?
Or do the newer engines just run cleaner and don't need bigger filters anymore? Why not just eliminate the oil filter and just change the oil even sooner?
By using less media filtering area does this mean GM feels the PF52 is overkill for the Corvette V8? How much smaller can they go? Why not just use 2 smaller filters then?
Or do the newer engines just run cleaner and don't need bigger filters anymore? Why not just eliminate the oil filter and just change the oil even sooner?
Last edited by Shylor; 03-21-2005 at 04:11 PM.
03-21-2005, 11:33 AM
#2
Racer
Being an engineer i will try to help you under stand.
Many motorists today are confused.
For several years General Motors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have been installing monitors on their dashboards that light up to indicate when its time to change oil. GM monitors have frequently allowed motorists to drive 5,000 miles and as much as 7,000 miles or more before signaling that it's time to change oil. The Mercedes-Benz service system indicates 10,000-20,000-mile oil change intervals.
Naturally, this flies in the face of the 3,000-mile drain recommendation.
What's a Car Owner to Do?
Petroleum oil companies have insisted their oil needs to be changed every 3,000 miles, even for vehicles with the dashboard light. But the world's largest automaker, General Motors, states that oil change intervals should not be based on miles driven, but rather on driving style. In a feature story titled, "Supersize Me! GM moves to extend drain intervals," (May 2004 Lubes N Greases, vol. 10 issue 5), David McFall unveils the latest move in GM's strategic plan to cut loose drain intervals.
The GM solution is for motorists to depend on its patented Oil Life System (OLS). The owner's manuals in today's GM fleet no longer make specific mileage recommendations. Instead, the GM Oil Life System analyzes the engine's operational data including temperature, revolutions, speed, to calculate the rate of engine oil degradation and determine when an oil is nearing the end of its life. At this point a message on the dashboard signals that it is time to change oil.
Each OLS computer model is engine-specific because GM believes each engine behaves differently under the various driving situations and conditions. For this reason GM is on record as stating there can be no standard oil change interval. Both cars and driving styles vary. The OLS allegedly calculates all factors pertaining to the engine and the driver and thereby makes its oil change recommendations.
GM senior project engineer Robert Stockwell has been studying analyzed oil samples from vehicles with OLS.
"In all cases where the OLS signaled for an oil change it was before the oil was worn out," according to Stockwell. "Many of these samples were from vehicles with greater than 10,000 miles on the oil, a few with more than 14,000 miles and at least one with 16,000 miles. These intervals were recorded in vehicles using regular mineral oil. Synthetic oil gets even longer oil change intervals."
Despite the clear environmental benefits of extending drain intervals, the major oil companies continue to send the message of regular, frequent oil changes to consumers and the mechanics who service their vehicles. Millions, if not billions, of dollars have been spent on advertising and training to reinforce this "change your oil every 3,000 miles" mantra.
In recent years, industry analysts, who have questioned the 3,000-mile oil change, have begun to speak out against them.
GM has unshackled its oil change indicator and soon there will be 24 million cars on the road relying on the Oil Life System.
a standard full flow oil filter can only filter to 20-25 microns, and at a reduced efficiency,If you increase the microns you could make oil changes virtually unnecessary and virtually eliminating engine wear. These filters have been proven by millions of miles of over-the road trucks, construction equipment and fleet service. But the oil company could not get into you back packet so easy and make you think you need a biger filter. When it is how many microns and flow that is in question not the size of the filter!
AMSOIL has been working to inlighten people to the true story for oil changing. Many here throw away there hard earned cash to the big oil company. This is just my two cents i hope this helps you understand better. I should also say that changing every 3k or less is up too you.
In the old days i made my own filter system for my cars that would do around 30-40 microns but the new filters are better now.
John
Many motorists today are confused.
For several years General Motors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have been installing monitors on their dashboards that light up to indicate when its time to change oil. GM monitors have frequently allowed motorists to drive 5,000 miles and as much as 7,000 miles or more before signaling that it's time to change oil. The Mercedes-Benz service system indicates 10,000-20,000-mile oil change intervals.
Naturally, this flies in the face of the 3,000-mile drain recommendation.
What's a Car Owner to Do?
Petroleum oil companies have insisted their oil needs to be changed every 3,000 miles, even for vehicles with the dashboard light. But the world's largest automaker, General Motors, states that oil change intervals should not be based on miles driven, but rather on driving style. In a feature story titled, "Supersize Me! GM moves to extend drain intervals," (May 2004 Lubes N Greases, vol. 10 issue 5), David McFall unveils the latest move in GM's strategic plan to cut loose drain intervals.
The GM solution is for motorists to depend on its patented Oil Life System (OLS). The owner's manuals in today's GM fleet no longer make specific mileage recommendations. Instead, the GM Oil Life System analyzes the engine's operational data including temperature, revolutions, speed, to calculate the rate of engine oil degradation and determine when an oil is nearing the end of its life. At this point a message on the dashboard signals that it is time to change oil.
Each OLS computer model is engine-specific because GM believes each engine behaves differently under the various driving situations and conditions. For this reason GM is on record as stating there can be no standard oil change interval. Both cars and driving styles vary. The OLS allegedly calculates all factors pertaining to the engine and the driver and thereby makes its oil change recommendations.
GM senior project engineer Robert Stockwell has been studying analyzed oil samples from vehicles with OLS.
"In all cases where the OLS signaled for an oil change it was before the oil was worn out," according to Stockwell. "Many of these samples were from vehicles with greater than 10,000 miles on the oil, a few with more than 14,000 miles and at least one with 16,000 miles. These intervals were recorded in vehicles using regular mineral oil. Synthetic oil gets even longer oil change intervals."
Despite the clear environmental benefits of extending drain intervals, the major oil companies continue to send the message of regular, frequent oil changes to consumers and the mechanics who service their vehicles. Millions, if not billions, of dollars have been spent on advertising and training to reinforce this "change your oil every 3,000 miles" mantra.
In recent years, industry analysts, who have questioned the 3,000-mile oil change, have begun to speak out against them.
GM has unshackled its oil change indicator and soon there will be 24 million cars on the road relying on the Oil Life System.
a standard full flow oil filter can only filter to 20-25 microns, and at a reduced efficiency,If you increase the microns you could make oil changes virtually unnecessary and virtually eliminating engine wear. These filters have been proven by millions of miles of over-the road trucks, construction equipment and fleet service. But the oil company could not get into you back packet so easy and make you think you need a biger filter. When it is how many microns and flow that is in question not the size of the filter!
AMSOIL has been working to inlighten people to the true story for oil changing. Many here throw away there hard earned cash to the big oil company. This is just my two cents i hope this helps you understand better. I should also say that changing every 3k or less is up too you.
In the old days i made my own filter system for my cars that would do around 30-40 microns but the new filters are better now.
John
Last edited by blkvett01; 03-21-2005 at 03:57 PM.
03-21-2005, 04:10 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by blkvett01
When it is how many microns and flow that is in question not the size of the filter!
I agree with this statement but I would also think size does matter. If a small filter has used up all of its filtering media space, then it is full of contaminats and its filtering capability has ended. A larger filter media could last longer.
I'm not sure the oil companies have been saying to change oils every 3,000 miles anymore. Not since synthetics came out anyway. It has been the auto companies that have been sticking to that. But I'm glad they both have seen the light. Now if we can just get consumers to let go of it.
I'm curious, what type of engineer are you?
Last edited by Shylor; 03-21-2005 at 04:13 PM.
03-21-2005, 04:37 PM
#4
Racer
Me and a Ce With a MBA thrown in lol tooo much school. 
Yes you are right to get the right amount of flow you whould need bigger as you increase the microns. When i built my filters i would use two filter with lines run to a area that i could change with out too much work. One of the best things in a filter for these cars is one with a check valve in it to stop the oil from draining back. Agaain just my two cents.
Yes you are right to get the right amount of flow you whould need bigger as you increase the microns. When i built my filters i would use two filter with lines run to a area that i could change with out too much work. One of the best things in a filter for these cars is one with a check valve in it to stop the oil from draining back. Agaain just my two cents.
Last edited by blkvett01; 03-21-2005 at 05:34 PM.
03-21-2005, 08:39 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by blkvett01
One of the best things in a filter for these cars is one with a check valve in it to stop the oil from draining back.
Umm, drain back to where? The filters are mounted vertically.
Last edited by Shylor; 03-21-2005 at 10:51 PM.
03-22-2005, 05:06 AM
#6
Team Owner
I was previously running the Mobil-1 filter. I did a used oil analysis after one year (yearly change based on service manual) and the person I had review my analysis told me to get rid of the Mobil-1 because it was too restrictive. I then went with the UPF-44 and found the same thing, restrictive to flow. As a matter of fact, this is when my startup tick when cool outside started to happen. Then I read the findings at the oil filter study web site (not the one where the filters were cut, but where cold flow and filtering ability were measured). I switched to a Baldwin (tried to get an Amsoil which came out excellent in this study) and my startup tick went away. Not sure if it was a cold oil starvation issue or a drainback issue but I haven't heard the engine tick once since I changed to the Baldwin and that was a year ago. In my opinion, you are better off trading off some filtering ability for more flow.
I have my engine oil review every year by Terry Dyson, and last years was the best to date and the first year of the Baldwin filter. Not sure how much the filter played a role or was it the higher miles on the motor, but the results to date have been very good.
I have my engine oil review every year by Terry Dyson, and last years was the best to date and the first year of the Baldwin filter. Not sure how much the filter played a role or was it the higher miles on the motor, but the results to date have been very good.
03-22-2005, 09:05 AM
#7
Racer
WHY DO WE CHANGE OIL?
Some machinery, for example steam turbines in power stations, does not require oil changes, the original charge being usually expected to last for the life of the machine, which may be 20 years or more.
Why then does the oil in a motor car engine have to be changed at regular intervals, which may represent only about 50 hours running?
To answer this question, it is as well to state that except under very unusual circumstances, oil does not “wear out”, “break down” or otherwise deteriorate to such an extent that it needs to be replaced. What happens is that it becomes contaminated with water, acids, burnt and un-burnt fuel, carbon particles and sludge so that it can no longer provide the desired degree of protection for engine components. But, it will be argued, most modern vehicles have an oil filter. Why does this not remove the contaminants? The answer here is that a filter can only remove solid particles above a certain size. It cannot remove water, acids, or fuel dilution, all of which pass through the full-flow filter just as readily as the oil.
As we have already seen, the oil contains additives to combat the effects of these contaminates. But there is a limit to the amount of contamination that even the best oil can neutralize, and there comes a time when the only satisfactory procedure is to drain the oil and replenish the engine with a new charge. Thus there arises the necessity for regular oil changes.
The question should now be asked “How often should engine oil be changed?” Unfortunately there is no simple answer to this. From what we have already discussed, it will now be apparent that we change oil, not because it has deteriorated, but because it has become contaminated with various harmful substances, and the greater the rate at which these enter the oil, the sooner an oil change will be necessary.
The things that influence this include engine condition and method of operation. A vehicle that is used mainly for short distance stop-start running will require more frequent oil changes than one used for regular long distance traveling, and a worn engine with leaky piston rings will contaminate the oil quicker than a new engine in good mechanical condition. Thus it is not unusual to specify oil change periods in terms of numbers of miles or days, whichever comes first.
It should also be borne in mind that a high performance product like Mobil Oil Super can handle more contaminate than other products, and hence longer oil change periods can be justified.
As a final comment on this subject, it is worth mentioning that it is normal for oil to darken in service. This is not an indication that the oil has deteriorated. It shows that it is picking up its load of contaminates and keeping then in suspension, where they can do no harm, and where they can be removed from the engine when the oil is changed.
John
Some machinery, for example steam turbines in power stations, does not require oil changes, the original charge being usually expected to last for the life of the machine, which may be 20 years or more.
Why then does the oil in a motor car engine have to be changed at regular intervals, which may represent only about 50 hours running?
To answer this question, it is as well to state that except under very unusual circumstances, oil does not “wear out”, “break down” or otherwise deteriorate to such an extent that it needs to be replaced. What happens is that it becomes contaminated with water, acids, burnt and un-burnt fuel, carbon particles and sludge so that it can no longer provide the desired degree of protection for engine components. But, it will be argued, most modern vehicles have an oil filter. Why does this not remove the contaminants? The answer here is that a filter can only remove solid particles above a certain size. It cannot remove water, acids, or fuel dilution, all of which pass through the full-flow filter just as readily as the oil.
As we have already seen, the oil contains additives to combat the effects of these contaminates. But there is a limit to the amount of contamination that even the best oil can neutralize, and there comes a time when the only satisfactory procedure is to drain the oil and replenish the engine with a new charge. Thus there arises the necessity for regular oil changes.
The question should now be asked “How often should engine oil be changed?” Unfortunately there is no simple answer to this. From what we have already discussed, it will now be apparent that we change oil, not because it has deteriorated, but because it has become contaminated with various harmful substances, and the greater the rate at which these enter the oil, the sooner an oil change will be necessary.
The things that influence this include engine condition and method of operation. A vehicle that is used mainly for short distance stop-start running will require more frequent oil changes than one used for regular long distance traveling, and a worn engine with leaky piston rings will contaminate the oil quicker than a new engine in good mechanical condition. Thus it is not unusual to specify oil change periods in terms of numbers of miles or days, whichever comes first.
It should also be borne in mind that a high performance product like Mobil Oil Super can handle more contaminate than other products, and hence longer oil change periods can be justified.
As a final comment on this subject, it is worth mentioning that it is normal for oil to darken in service. This is not an indication that the oil has deteriorated. It shows that it is picking up its load of contaminates and keeping then in suspension, where they can do no harm, and where they can be removed from the engine when the oil is changed.
John
03-22-2005, 09:46 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by blkvett01
Being an engineer i will try to help you under stand.
Many motorists today are confused.
For several years General Motors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have been installing monitors on their dashboards that light up to indicate when its time to change oil. GM monitors have frequently allowed motorists to drive 5,000 miles and as much as 7,000 miles or more before signaling that it's time to change oil. The Mercedes-Benz service system indicates 10,000-20,000-mile oil change intervals.
Naturally, this flies in the face of the 3,000-mile drain recommendation.
What's a Car Owner to Do?
Petroleum oil companies have insisted their oil needs to be changed every 3,000 miles, even for vehicles with the dashboard light. But the world's largest automaker, General Motors, states that oil change intervals should not be based on miles driven, but rather on driving style. In a feature story titled, "Supersize Me! GM moves to extend drain intervals," (May 2004 Lubes N Greases, vol. 10 issue 5), David McFall unveils the latest move in GM's strategic plan to cut loose drain intervals.
The GM solution is for motorists to depend on its patented Oil Life System (OLS). The owner's manuals in today's GM fleet no longer make specific mileage recommendations. Instead, the GM Oil Life System analyzes the engine's operational data including temperature, revolutions, speed, to calculate the rate of engine oil degradation and determine when an oil is nearing the end of its life. At this point a message on the dashboard signals that it is time to change oil.
Each OLS computer model is engine-specific because GM believes each engine behaves differently under the various driving situations and conditions. For this reason GM is on record as stating there can be no standard oil change interval. Both cars and driving styles vary. The OLS allegedly calculates all factors pertaining to the engine and the driver and thereby makes its oil change recommendations.
GM senior project engineer Robert Stockwell has been studying analyzed oil samples from vehicles with OLS.
"In all cases where the OLS signaled for an oil change it was before the oil was worn out," according to Stockwell. "Many of these samples were from vehicles with greater than 10,000 miles on the oil, a few with more than 14,000 miles and at least one with 16,000 miles. These intervals were recorded in vehicles using regular mineral oil. Synthetic oil gets even longer oil change intervals."
Despite the clear environmental benefits of extending drain intervals, the major oil companies continue to send the message of regular, frequent oil changes to consumers and the mechanics who service their vehicles. Millions, if not billions, of dollars have been spent on advertising and training to reinforce this "change your oil every 3,000 miles" mantra.
In recent years, industry analysts, who have questioned the 3,000-mile oil change, have begun to speak out against them.
GM has unshackled its oil change indicator and soon there will be 24 million cars on the road relying on the Oil Life System.
a standard full flow oil filter can only filter to 20-25 microns, and at a reduced efficiency,If you increase the microns you could make oil changes virtually unnecessary and virtually eliminating engine wear. These filters have been proven by millions of miles of over-the road trucks, construction equipment and fleet service. But the oil company could not get into you back packet so easy and make you think you need a biger filter. When it is how many microns and flow that is in question not the size of the filter!
AMSOIL has been working to inlighten people to the true story for oil changing. Many here throw away there hard earned cash to the big oil company. This is just my two cents i hope this helps you understand better. I should also say that changing every 3k or less is up too you.
In the old days i made my own filter system for my cars that would do around 30-40 microns but the new filters are better now.
John
Many motorists today are confused.
For several years General Motors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have been installing monitors on their dashboards that light up to indicate when its time to change oil. GM monitors have frequently allowed motorists to drive 5,000 miles and as much as 7,000 miles or more before signaling that it's time to change oil. The Mercedes-Benz service system indicates 10,000-20,000-mile oil change intervals.
Naturally, this flies in the face of the 3,000-mile drain recommendation.
What's a Car Owner to Do?
Petroleum oil companies have insisted their oil needs to be changed every 3,000 miles, even for vehicles with the dashboard light. But the world's largest automaker, General Motors, states that oil change intervals should not be based on miles driven, but rather on driving style. In a feature story titled, "Supersize Me! GM moves to extend drain intervals," (May 2004 Lubes N Greases, vol. 10 issue 5), David McFall unveils the latest move in GM's strategic plan to cut loose drain intervals.
The GM solution is for motorists to depend on its patented Oil Life System (OLS). The owner's manuals in today's GM fleet no longer make specific mileage recommendations. Instead, the GM Oil Life System analyzes the engine's operational data including temperature, revolutions, speed, to calculate the rate of engine oil degradation and determine when an oil is nearing the end of its life. At this point a message on the dashboard signals that it is time to change oil.
Each OLS computer model is engine-specific because GM believes each engine behaves differently under the various driving situations and conditions. For this reason GM is on record as stating there can be no standard oil change interval. Both cars and driving styles vary. The OLS allegedly calculates all factors pertaining to the engine and the driver and thereby makes its oil change recommendations.
GM senior project engineer Robert Stockwell has been studying analyzed oil samples from vehicles with OLS.
"In all cases where the OLS signaled for an oil change it was before the oil was worn out," according to Stockwell. "Many of these samples were from vehicles with greater than 10,000 miles on the oil, a few with more than 14,000 miles and at least one with 16,000 miles. These intervals were recorded in vehicles using regular mineral oil. Synthetic oil gets even longer oil change intervals."
Despite the clear environmental benefits of extending drain intervals, the major oil companies continue to send the message of regular, frequent oil changes to consumers and the mechanics who service their vehicles. Millions, if not billions, of dollars have been spent on advertising and training to reinforce this "change your oil every 3,000 miles" mantra.
In recent years, industry analysts, who have questioned the 3,000-mile oil change, have begun to speak out against them.
GM has unshackled its oil change indicator and soon there will be 24 million cars on the road relying on the Oil Life System.
a standard full flow oil filter can only filter to 20-25 microns, and at a reduced efficiency,If you increase the microns you could make oil changes virtually unnecessary and virtually eliminating engine wear. These filters have been proven by millions of miles of over-the road trucks, construction equipment and fleet service. But the oil company could not get into you back packet so easy and make you think you need a biger filter. When it is how many microns and flow that is in question not the size of the filter!
AMSOIL has been working to inlighten people to the true story for oil changing. Many here throw away there hard earned cash to the big oil company. This is just my two cents i hope this helps you understand better. I should also say that changing every 3k or less is up too you.
In the old days i made my own filter system for my cars that would do around 30-40 microns but the new filters are better now.
John
03-22-2005, 10:33 AM
#9
Racer
The Mobil 1 High Efficiency Oil Filter is the most advanced oil filter available for consumers today, offering unsurpassed filter durability and exceptional filtration capability. When used with Mobil 1 Synthetic Engine Oil, this filter provides the ultimate in engine wear and cleanliness protection. Removes more contaminants via a substantial improvement in multiple pass filter efficiency (95% vs. 80% for conventional filters) by using a synthetic fiber media. It also offers significant improvements in filter durability, both in hydrostatic pressure testing (steadily increasing pressures) and in cyclic pressure impulse testing. The Mobil 1 High Efficiency Oil Filter outperforms conventional filters by 2.5 to 1 in hydrostatic testing, and by 3 to 1 in cyclic pressure impulse testing. Reduces resistance to oil flow while improving filter efficiency. Easier removal of the filter at the end of its useful life (less straining with the oil filter wrench) based on use of a special gasket that requires less torque at installation. The Mobil 1 High Efficiency Oil Filter is available in a wide variety of sizes to accommodate a broad range of consumer automobiles and light trucks.
Just my two cents!
With our high flow pumps we can handle more micron filteration than past cars. The psi on these car can hit 80 psi or better.
Just my two cents!
With our high flow pumps we can handle more micron filteration than past cars. The psi on these car can hit 80 psi or better.
03-22-2005, 10:40 AM
#10
Racer
Getting to long winded last post unless some ask for more> This should help most here understand oil and filters.
1. Solid Contamination: It is generally recognized, backed by numerous tests and studies over the last 40 years, that contamination generated in an engine that is responsible for the majority of "normal" wear, is within the 1 - 20 micron range. Also this small solid contamination contributes to accelerating Condition Caused Contaminants such as Oxidation, Nitration, Acid Formation and more. Consequently, it is imperative that this contamination be removed from the system as fast as possible. The typical factory full-flow filter cannot control 1 - 20 micron particles due to its porous design to supply the engine with a high flow rate of oil. One must use filtration that is capable of controlling solids in the 1 - 20 micron range and smaller.
2. Moisture Contamination: Moisture contamination within the lube oil will cause viscosity increase, VI polymer decrease, TBN decrease, acid formation, accelerated oxidation and nitration. If left unchecked, it will cause accelerated wear, filter plugging, sludge formation, and corrosion of parts. To safely eliminate routine oil drains, one must use additional filtration that utilizes an adsorbent filter media, which can remove suspended moisture from the lube oil.
3. Condition Caused Contamination: There are three MAJOR types of contamination that are formed within the lube oil during normal use: Oxidation, Nitration, and Acid. These contaminants are formed when solid and moisture contamination are present, and certain operating conditions exist within the engine. These Condition Caused Contaminants can be controlled by the use of additional filtration and with the proper filter service interval.
a. Oxidation: Oxidation occurs when the hydrocarbon constituents (and other products) of lube oil combine chemically with oxygen. Lube oil in engines will combine with available oxygen under certain conditions to form a wide variety of oxidation products. Many of these direct or primary oxidation products combine with other materials such as wear metals, solid contamination, and moisture, to form second and third derivative products. As with most chemical reactions, oil oxidation is accelerated by heat and pressure. Heat in particular will speed up the oxidation process. Various studies have shown that lube oxidation (with many variables such as the type lubricant and additive package in the lubricant) that the oxidation rate can be doubled for every 15 to 20 degrees increase over 180 degrees F. Also, engine load, which will dictate the levels of oxygen and pressure within the engine, will accelerate the oxidation process. Effects of oxidation within the engine can be seen in the form of accelerated acid formation, corrosion, oil thickening, deposit formation, and accelerated wear.
John
1. Solid Contamination: It is generally recognized, backed by numerous tests and studies over the last 40 years, that contamination generated in an engine that is responsible for the majority of "normal" wear, is within the 1 - 20 micron range. Also this small solid contamination contributes to accelerating Condition Caused Contaminants such as Oxidation, Nitration, Acid Formation and more. Consequently, it is imperative that this contamination be removed from the system as fast as possible. The typical factory full-flow filter cannot control 1 - 20 micron particles due to its porous design to supply the engine with a high flow rate of oil. One must use filtration that is capable of controlling solids in the 1 - 20 micron range and smaller.
2. Moisture Contamination: Moisture contamination within the lube oil will cause viscosity increase, VI polymer decrease, TBN decrease, acid formation, accelerated oxidation and nitration. If left unchecked, it will cause accelerated wear, filter plugging, sludge formation, and corrosion of parts. To safely eliminate routine oil drains, one must use additional filtration that utilizes an adsorbent filter media, which can remove suspended moisture from the lube oil.
3. Condition Caused Contamination: There are three MAJOR types of contamination that are formed within the lube oil during normal use: Oxidation, Nitration, and Acid. These contaminants are formed when solid and moisture contamination are present, and certain operating conditions exist within the engine. These Condition Caused Contaminants can be controlled by the use of additional filtration and with the proper filter service interval.
a. Oxidation: Oxidation occurs when the hydrocarbon constituents (and other products) of lube oil combine chemically with oxygen. Lube oil in engines will combine with available oxygen under certain conditions to form a wide variety of oxidation products. Many of these direct or primary oxidation products combine with other materials such as wear metals, solid contamination, and moisture, to form second and third derivative products. As with most chemical reactions, oil oxidation is accelerated by heat and pressure. Heat in particular will speed up the oxidation process. Various studies have shown that lube oxidation (with many variables such as the type lubricant and additive package in the lubricant) that the oxidation rate can be doubled for every 15 to 20 degrees increase over 180 degrees F. Also, engine load, which will dictate the levels of oxygen and pressure within the engine, will accelerate the oxidation process. Effects of oxidation within the engine can be seen in the form of accelerated acid formation, corrosion, oil thickening, deposit formation, and accelerated wear.
John
03-22-2005, 02:59 PM
#11
Originally Posted by blkvett01
Getting to long winded last post unless some ask for more> This should help most here understand oil and filters.
1. Solid Contamination: It is generally recognized, backed by numerous tests and studies over the last 40 years, that contamination generated in an engine that is responsible for the majority of "normal" wear, is within the 1 - 20 micron range. Also this small solid contamination contributes to accelerating Condition Caused Contaminants such as Oxidation, Nitration, Acid Formation and more. Consequently, it is imperative that this contamination be removed from the system as fast as possible. The typical factory full-flow filter cannot control 1 - 20 micron particles due to its porous design to supply the engine with a high flow rate of oil. One must use filtration that is capable of controlling solids in the 1 - 20 micron range and smaller.
2. Moisture Contamination: Moisture contamination within the lube oil will cause viscosity increase, VI polymer decrease, TBN decrease, acid formation, accelerated oxidation and nitration. If left unchecked, it will cause accelerated wear, filter plugging, sludge formation, and corrosion of parts. To safely eliminate routine oil drains, one must use additional filtration that utilizes an adsorbent filter media, which can remove suspended moisture from the lube oil.
3. Condition Caused Contamination: There are three MAJOR types of contamination that are formed within the lube oil during normal use: Oxidation, Nitration, and Acid. These contaminants are formed when solid and moisture contamination are present, and certain operating conditions exist within the engine. These Condition Caused Contaminants can be controlled by the use of additional filtration and with the proper filter service interval.
a. Oxidation: Oxidation occurs when the hydrocarbon constituents (and other products) of lube oil combine chemically with oxygen. Lube oil in engines will combine with available oxygen under certain conditions to form a wide variety of oxidation products. Many of these direct or primary oxidation products combine with other materials such as wear metals, solid contamination, and moisture, to form second and third derivative products. As with most chemical reactions, oil oxidation is accelerated by heat and pressure. Heat in particular will speed up the oxidation process. Various studies have shown that lube oxidation (with many variables such as the type lubricant and additive package in the lubricant) that the oxidation rate can be doubled for every 15 to 20 degrees increase over 180 degrees F. Also, engine load, which will dictate the levels of oxygen and pressure within the engine, will accelerate the oxidation process. Effects of oxidation within the engine can be seen in the form of accelerated acid formation, corrosion, oil thickening, deposit formation, and accelerated wear.
John
1. Solid Contamination: It is generally recognized, backed by numerous tests and studies over the last 40 years, that contamination generated in an engine that is responsible for the majority of "normal" wear, is within the 1 - 20 micron range. Also this small solid contamination contributes to accelerating Condition Caused Contaminants such as Oxidation, Nitration, Acid Formation and more. Consequently, it is imperative that this contamination be removed from the system as fast as possible. The typical factory full-flow filter cannot control 1 - 20 micron particles due to its porous design to supply the engine with a high flow rate of oil. One must use filtration that is capable of controlling solids in the 1 - 20 micron range and smaller.
2. Moisture Contamination: Moisture contamination within the lube oil will cause viscosity increase, VI polymer decrease, TBN decrease, acid formation, accelerated oxidation and nitration. If left unchecked, it will cause accelerated wear, filter plugging, sludge formation, and corrosion of parts. To safely eliminate routine oil drains, one must use additional filtration that utilizes an adsorbent filter media, which can remove suspended moisture from the lube oil.
3. Condition Caused Contamination: There are three MAJOR types of contamination that are formed within the lube oil during normal use: Oxidation, Nitration, and Acid. These contaminants are formed when solid and moisture contamination are present, and certain operating conditions exist within the engine. These Condition Caused Contaminants can be controlled by the use of additional filtration and with the proper filter service interval.
a. Oxidation: Oxidation occurs when the hydrocarbon constituents (and other products) of lube oil combine chemically with oxygen. Lube oil in engines will combine with available oxygen under certain conditions to form a wide variety of oxidation products. Many of these direct or primary oxidation products combine with other materials such as wear metals, solid contamination, and moisture, to form second and third derivative products. As with most chemical reactions, oil oxidation is accelerated by heat and pressure. Heat in particular will speed up the oxidation process. Various studies have shown that lube oxidation (with many variables such as the type lubricant and additive package in the lubricant) that the oxidation rate can be doubled for every 15 to 20 degrees increase over 180 degrees F. Also, engine load, which will dictate the levels of oxygen and pressure within the engine, will accelerate the oxidation process. Effects of oxidation within the engine can be seen in the form of accelerated acid formation, corrosion, oil thickening, deposit formation, and accelerated wear.
John
03-22-2005, 03:44 PM
#12
Racer
That is not that easy! but here are a few points.
Water
The normal boiling point is the temperature at which the liquid boils when the external pressure is one atmosphere (760 torr = 760 mm Hg = 1 atm = 101.3 kPa = 14.7 psi).
At normal sea leavel is 212 with no addtives in the water.
How can one determine the temperature at which water boils? After all, bubbles start to appear in water well below the known boiling point of 100 degrees C (212 °F).
The answer lies in monitoring the temperature of the material with time. When the boiling point is reached, the temperature will not rise again until all of the liquid has evaporated. This is due to the high heat capacity of water (it takes much more energy to convert water from liquid to gas than it does to raise the temperature of liquid water).
The general reference material for evaporation rates is n-butyl acetate (commonly abbreviated BuAc) which has the chemical structure shown below. Whenever a relative evaporation rate is given, the reference material must be stated.
The relative evaporation rate of butyl acetate is 1.0. Other materials are then classified as:
Speed Evaporation Rate
(BuAc = 1.0) Examples
Fast > 3.0 Methyl Ethyl Ketone = 3.8
Acetone = 5.6
Hexane = 8.3.
Medium 0.8 to 3.0 95% Ethyl Alcohol = 1.4
Naphtha = 1.4
Slow < 0.8 Xylene = 0.6
Isobutyl Alcohol = 0.6
Water = 0.3
Mineral Spirits = 0.1
This would be with pure water! As you know the car engine would not have pure water in it.
Now you say where is he going with this.
As you can see alot of things would have to happen for water to boil off in oil. The oil would start to break down do to heat and pressure.
Oil would start have some problems. So hence i would not try this in a car engine.
Sorry i get carried away!
John
Water
The normal boiling point is the temperature at which the liquid boils when the external pressure is one atmosphere (760 torr = 760 mm Hg = 1 atm = 101.3 kPa = 14.7 psi).
At normal sea leavel is 212 with no addtives in the water.
How can one determine the temperature at which water boils? After all, bubbles start to appear in water well below the known boiling point of 100 degrees C (212 °F).
The answer lies in monitoring the temperature of the material with time. When the boiling point is reached, the temperature will not rise again until all of the liquid has evaporated. This is due to the high heat capacity of water (it takes much more energy to convert water from liquid to gas than it does to raise the temperature of liquid water).
The general reference material for evaporation rates is n-butyl acetate (commonly abbreviated BuAc) which has the chemical structure shown below. Whenever a relative evaporation rate is given, the reference material must be stated.
The relative evaporation rate of butyl acetate is 1.0. Other materials are then classified as:
Speed Evaporation Rate
(BuAc = 1.0) Examples
Fast > 3.0 Methyl Ethyl Ketone = 3.8
Acetone = 5.6
Hexane = 8.3.
Medium 0.8 to 3.0 95% Ethyl Alcohol = 1.4
Naphtha = 1.4
Slow < 0.8 Xylene = 0.6
Isobutyl Alcohol = 0.6
Water = 0.3
Mineral Spirits = 0.1
This would be with pure water! As you know the car engine would not have pure water in it.
Now you say where is he going with this.
As you can see alot of things would have to happen for water to boil off in oil. The oil would start to break down do to heat and pressure.
Oil would start have some problems. So hence i would not try this in a car engine.
Sorry i get carried away!
John
03-22-2005, 05:25 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
This would be with pure water! As you know the car engine would not have pure water in it.
The oil would start to break down do to heat and pressure.
Oil would start have some problems. So hence i would not try this in a car engine. (Quote)
I agree with most of what you said except for these two rediculous statements. Number 1: The engine does get pure water in the oil. Condensation is about as pure as you can get. Yes, it is contaminated but it contains pure water. If you can see dew on your lawn in the morning, your oil has contamination from "Pure Water" in it. Number 2: Oils start to break down at at 212 degrees. Definitly not true, today's synthetic oils are good up to 250 degrees. Not suggesting you run it there but the oil is not the problem, water and other contaminants are. If you read SASE latest reports, the oil needs to be at or slightly above 212 to rid it of condensation. That's one reason why GM put the hot thermostats in the Corvette. These guys that are putting 180 and 160 thermostats are definitly screwing up if they are for street use. Racing is different because you change your oil on raceday.
The oil would start to break down do to heat and pressure.
Oil would start have some problems. So hence i would not try this in a car engine. (Quote)
I agree with most of what you said except for these two rediculous statements. Number 1: The engine does get pure water in the oil. Condensation is about as pure as you can get. Yes, it is contaminated but it contains pure water. If you can see dew on your lawn in the morning, your oil has contamination from "Pure Water" in it. Number 2: Oils start to break down at at 212 degrees. Definitly not true, today's synthetic oils are good up to 250 degrees. Not suggesting you run it there but the oil is not the problem, water and other contaminants are. If you read SASE latest reports, the oil needs to be at or slightly above 212 to rid it of condensation. That's one reason why GM put the hot thermostats in the Corvette. These guys that are putting 180 and 160 thermostats are definitly screwing up if they are for street use. Racing is different because you change your oil on raceday.
03-22-2005, 05:58 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
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Originally Posted by Shylor
I'm wondering why GM went to a smaller filter size with the PF46 (PF44 and UPF44), over the PF52 (of the C4). Doesn't the shorter length means less media area to filter oil? I don't believe the clearance excuse because GM could have just designed in the filter placement higher.
By using less media filtering area does this mean GM feels the PF52 is overkill for the Corvette V8? How much smaller can they go? Why not just use 2 smaller filters then?
Or do the newer engines just run cleaner and don't need bigger filters anymore? Why not just eliminate the oil filter and just change the oil even sooner?
By using less media filtering area does this mean GM feels the PF52 is overkill for the Corvette V8? How much smaller can they go? Why not just use 2 smaller filters then?
Or do the newer engines just run cleaner and don't need bigger filters anymore? Why not just eliminate the oil filter and just change the oil even sooner?
Last edited by birch64; 03-22-2005 at 06:43 PM.
03-22-2005, 06:37 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
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Can anyone explain why the PF46 oil filter for the Corvette needs an anti-drainback valve? I keep hearing it has one but I don't it a new one I bought. I don't understand why a vertically mounted filter needs this feature.
Last edited by Shylor; 03-22-2005 at 08:55 PM.
03-22-2005, 08:00 PM
#16
Racer
Well ok (two rediculous statements) Well i was only giving you a base line not,oil boiling points nor pure water in the engine yes there is to a point pure water. I would say if i am reading you right,are you saying changing temp to lower temps is bad. Yes! But to make power you need cooler temp so some think that is the way. The engineers that did the work on the ls1 and ls6 motors took all aspects in to conderation. You do need the right amount of temp in the engine to move the water out along with other Contamination. That is why i put the long post in for the contamination in the oil.
Ok you are right about getting the most miles out of you car you want higher temp to a point. Some do not care so they lower there temp to get more power. I use my vett as a dd and keep temp at normal. I make power i want in other ways. I cool the air before entering the engine so to keep temp at the normal range. By no means do i say i know more about making a fast car. I just know Engineering to witch it help me get the most out of what i do. In most cases i do not follow standards here. In other case i do like new headers setting in my living room waiting to go on!
I could go on but many would get bord reading a long post on engineering and how it effect a car and power and all of the things that happen. The one thing i do know for the money You Can Not Get a Much Better Car! Thanks To GM and All The Engineers For This! It makes me Every Day I Drive My Vett!
2KREDVert:
Also PUROLATOR are good. Test well the are subject to many thoughts!
Shylor:
Back check valves are to keep oil in the block where at cold start it has some oil aready in the bolck. Back check valves are used up side down and many other ways. Not trying to be a smart a-- in this but when i do my engineering work i use them in many apps.
I do not Design engines! By the Way i just play with mine.
John
Ok you are right about getting the most miles out of you car you want higher temp to a point. Some do not care so they lower there temp to get more power. I use my vett as a dd and keep temp at normal. I make power i want in other ways. I cool the air before entering the engine so to keep temp at the normal range. By no means do i say i know more about making a fast car. I just know Engineering to witch it help me get the most out of what i do. In most cases i do not follow standards here. In other case i do like new headers setting in my living room waiting to go on!
I could go on but many would get bord reading a long post on engineering and how it effect a car and power and all of the things that happen. The one thing i do know for the money You Can Not Get a Much Better Car!
Thanks To GM and All The Engineers For This! It makes me Every Day I Drive My Vett! 2KREDVert:
Also PUROLATOR are good. Test well the are subject to many thoughts!
Shylor:
Back check valves are to keep oil in the block where at cold start it has some oil aready in the bolck. Back check valves are used up side down and many other ways. Not trying to be a smart a-- in this but when i do my engineering work i use them in many apps.
I do not Design engines! By the Way i just play with mine.
John
03-22-2005, 08:58 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
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Originally Posted by blkvett01
Back check valves are to keep oil in the block where at cold start it has some oil aready in the bolck. Back check valves are used up side down and many other ways.
I already understood what the valves do. I just want to know why the PF46 would even have it, since they are mounted vertically on the Corvette engine and not needed. The filters won't drain out any oil mounted vertically. Seems to be a pointless feature.
03-23-2005, 03:28 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Shylor
I already understood what the valves do. I just want to know why the PF46 would even have it, since they are mounted vertically on the Corvette engine and not needed. The filters won't drain out any oil mounted vertically. Seems to be a pointless feature.
As I said, only a guess. I don't have a schematic of the oil passages in front of me to verify.
WATER IN OIL
From the Amsoil website: The hotter the oil is when water is present the more severe the chemical reaction is and corrosion related damage could definitely occur.
From a preventive maintenance site for Natural Gas Turbines: "Systems can experience foaming problems with as little as 100 ppm to 300 ppm of water. This is of particular importance in engines where the oil temperatures are too low. Evaporation may not occur and low oil operating temperatures create the conditions necessary for nitration to develop. This is the reason “most” natural gas engine manufacturers recommend that engines run with oil temperatures in a range of 180°F to 185°F (82°C to 85°C)."
Seems to me an oil temperature of 195-200F, reachable with a 160F thermostat, should be enough to evaporate the water out of the oil. I don't believe that you have to boil the water out, i.e., get up to 212F. Does anyone have data from SAE or another association that states moisture removal from oil requires temps equal to or above 212F? I haven't been able to find any.
03-23-2005, 04:10 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by TopCat
My guess is to trap oil upstream and downstream of the filter, not necessarily to trap oil in the filter. It prevents oil above the filter from draining backwards through the pump into the pan, keeping the oil ports "full."
How is oil supposed to drain backwards through the filter when the oil filter is vertical and at a low point?
03-23-2005, 06:59 PM
#20
Racer
drain back
Perhaps if the filter won't allow oil to drain back through it, the oil will stay in the lines in the upper portion of the block closer to were its needed on startup... Also, I would think that reversing flow through the filter could cause contaminants to re-enter the oil?
